Re: Recommended reading for EQ
I have addressed subwoofer peaks with an Antimode 8033 dsp room eq and main speaker bass peaks with three filters below 200 Hz on the ADI-2. That made a real difference.
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RME User Forum → ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series → Recommended reading for EQ
I have addressed subwoofer peaks with an Antimode 8033 dsp room eq and main speaker bass peaks with three filters below 200 Hz on the ADI-2. That made a real difference.
https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_ … _rt60.html
In completely Lay Terms...this is a measure of how much Crap is still reverberating in your Room AFTER the test signal/Guitar Pluck stops. From a Listener's perspective, we hear this as "detail" "nuance" and "articulation" (or Lack thereof) Even ordinary Conversation enjoys greater Clarity when RT60s are in Check. You CANNOT DRC: Anti-Mode/ Dirac anything of the Sort into the equation.
In all, a Solid Explanation of the RT60 data in your tests, and WHY it should matter to you. It has been argued that good RT60s are FAR more important to our perception of good sound, than would be a ruler flat FR.
Good Read.
Happy Listening all,
Curt
Thanks Curt!
I will check these graphs this week.
I find them hard to read, and I must admit I can't tell if a graph is good or not...
And how can we work on this RT60? By treating the room?
And when somebody announce one figure for the RT60, which figure is it?
Thanks!
Hello All,
At the Risk of appearing as a "Shill" for GIK Acoustics, (although admittedly, I DO Love their Products) do let me share this article with you.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/understanding-decay-times/
Very Well Written article that makes sense of it all.
Best Regards,
Curt
Whenever I access this URL with Opera on my Android smartphone I am getting a popup message "your cart e-mail sent successfully" for maybe less than 0.5s.
Wondering what these guys are doing in terms of scripting when people access content on their server ...
I've never seen that message Ramses. Ich habe keine ahnung. Ive waded through their Site enough times that were there a problem, I surely would have seen it. Blame Google. They data-mine us to death.
Regards,
Curt
yes ;-)
Hello All,
At the Risk of appearing as a "Shill" for GIK Acoustics, (although admittedly, I DO Love their Products) do let me share this article with you.
https://www.gikacoustics.com/understanding-decay-times/
Very Well Written article that makes sense of it all.
Best Regards,
Curt
GIK - UK are also very good. Very attentive to your needs and will go out of their way for you.
Their returns policy is very fair too!
Full refunds with no quibble.
Now I sound like a shill...
yes ;-)
Oh Ramses...Indeed!
Never take a Smart Phone into the Bathroom! If you do, and remain there for more than Five Minutes....Google Location Services will ensure that you are bombarded with every Laxative, Toilet Paper, etc advert they can send to you.
All in the name of "Improving your Internet Experience" Intrusive BS imo...
_uck Google.
I looked at RT60 for my (large) listening room. From 125Hz up it slowly drops from 0.6 to 0.45 seconds which I understand is about textbook ideal. Measurement was with half the curtains closed to keep out the sun.
Hi all,
James Lindenschmidt here. I'm a designer/audiogeek for GIK Acoustics. I'm here to comment specifically on this thread, as a result of Curt's invitation. I can't say I'm an RME user but I've always liked & admired RME products, in part because they are one of the few audio manufacturers to fully support Linux. ;-)
Apologies if what I write here has already been discussed (I haven't had time to read this entire thread) but my comments about how I use RT60 in small rooms as an acoustic designer might also be useful for others, so I'm posting at his invitation.
Regarding RT60, for small rooms I don't spend much time looking at or thinking about RT60. For me that's more of a larger room phenomenon, where we calculate how much absorption is required (in surface area) to reduce RT60 to desired levels in big rooms like auditoriums or basketball courts.
For test data in small rooms, I spend way more time looking at waterfall graphs and impulse response (I wrote an article on my blog about impulse response that might be useful). That tells me tons more that I need to know for a small room. As an example, I recently finished building/treating my own room (I use it for both listening and mixing/producing), and I had to go look at my test data to see what my RT60 was..... I couldn't have told you! I just don't care that much about it, and to the extent that I do care, I'm more concerned that RT60 is consistent across the frequency spectrum than have the average RT60 be at some arbitrary number.
The biggest difficulty I've seen with RT60 is that people are so afraid to have a room that's "too dead" that they won't put enough treatment in (or perhaps more accurately, enough of the right kinds of treatment in) to get a good-sounding room. For instance, the average RT60 for my room above 100Hz is about 125ms, which most people concerned with RT60 will say is far too short. I would invite people who say so to come listen, my room sounds wonderful, quite natural, and it's not like being in an anechoic chamber at all. Of course my room is VERY small (about 10x12).....
So again, yes, for test data in small rooms I'd much rather have a smooth, consistent waterfall graph, and Impulse response. If these are in place, then in my experience the room will sound wonderful no matter what its RT60.
Thanks!
Thanks for this really helpful message!
Thanks very much indeed. So now the challenge is to produce and interpret these waterfall and impulse plots, so we can contemplate how to improve the in room response above the Schroeder frequency. By the way, what do you call a small room size?
James Rocks!!
James, Thanks from the entire group for generously sharing your Professional Insight, and putting the entire discussion into a Real World Perspective. Good Stuff!
Willem. A "Small Room" in Acoustics would be a Room smaller than the Concertgebouw in NL.
Curt
For sure there is some debate over what constitutes a small room. Certainly anything under 2500 cubic feet of volume is a small room. I'd argue it's even larger, at least in terms of the utility of RT60 times and calculations as determinant of sonic performance. As a real world comparison, I'd say anything smaller than a basketball court is probably more usefully thought of as a small room for this stuff.
Also, big/small room isn't a toggle switch.... the smaller the room the less I care about RT60, the bigger the room the more I care about it. :-D
As far as testing, I use Room EQ Wizard which is donationware, crossplatform software. It works very very well. GIK has a tutorial video on the basics of usage here. There are links above to articles on the GIK site (the Impulse/ETC article written by me) for help interpreting it. I'm also happy to look at anyone's data if they need help understanding what they are looking at and formulating a good acoustic treatment strategy. Best to contact me offlist for this, preferably by emailing my GIK account (James.L =at= GIKacoustics.com).
Thanks James!
That is absolutely fantastic information! I'm chuffed that this thread is garnering so much attention from the acoustic gods.
I/We clearly have a LOT to learn....
Hi All,
I really goofed when I blurted out RT60 while really having the Waterfall Graph in my Mind (or what's left of it) Of course RT60 data can be found in the Waterfall, but it's only a single slice of the Big Picture.
The Science, and Research involved truly suggests that a "Uniform Decay" is most desirable in our world as James has noted. There IS NO Magic "Target Number" in our little Rooms. The Scientific Models are based on the dimensions/construction of Performance Venues...not Glorified Bedrooms.
My Take Away: A reasonably uniform FR. A reasonably uniform Decay...then walk away from it. If you like what you hear? You're Golden!!
Curt
I have now generated a waterfall plot from my 10 Hz-15K Hz graph. The peaks that we identified earlier are also still clearly visible in the waterfall, which is, of course, not surprising because we only reduced the peaks but did not eliminate them. Above the low frequency range there are many quite evenly spaced ridges that get smaller and smaller as the frequency goes up. I don't know how to interpret this.
Willem,
Post Up your Graph, so we can have a look, and Speculate Wildly amongst the Group.
Regards,
Curt
Alex (Noob),
Thanks for the Graph. You'll think I'm absolutely CRAZY, but in this Band-Limited, and seemingly Un-Smoothed Test, I don't see any major "Stand-Outs" (ie: Decay Times best measured on a Calendar, etc)
Unless we're evaluating Speaker Cabinet, or Driver Resonances, I think we at Home are better served by running the Sweep Full Range, and PLEASE use Smoothing!! I know....I know that some feel we're "obscuring detail", but who needs detail if we're not actually going to fix it? If we can just put the Data into a Context closer to how we hear it (I like 1/3 Oct) ...We also make the Graph a bit easier to interpret, plus we have the added benefit of a Clearer View of the BIG (Overall) Picture.
Curt
PS: I warned you all in advance. Room Data can be the Gateway to Insanity.
PPS: I don't know if it's advancing Age,.or just Plain Laziness that disuades me from fixating on Minutae. Simply show me the Big Picture. The Little things are just that. "Little". Don't lose Sleep over a Pimple at 11,259hz or the like. Just assume that it "adds a bit of Air"
It's all Good Fun Folks! So go enjoy your Music!
Be Careful though. Don't be like Rick (RPGroman) who aggravated a Sore Shoulder while moving Big, Heavy Speakers)
If I might Ramble on just a bit further...
At this Juncture, I find it highly commendable that this Group has maintained it's Composure, and retained Mikes's (Sparkydude) Thread as a Bastion of Constructive Cooperation!!
Every Poster has had something meaningful to add. Thanks to You All!!!
I'd Wager MC sleeps better knowing we're actively maintaining a BS Free Zone here!
Best to you all,
Curt
Can I ask.
When running REW through the RME, which filter is best applied? I personally feel that SDSharp should be used as it maintains the highs for a longer period.
Would this be correct?
Mike.
I would use the default filter SD Sharp.
See manual p. 20 DA Filter.
SD Sharp delivers the widest and most linear frequency response and lowest latency.
1/3 smoothing, full range.
And just to precise (as I have posted other's graphs): these are my datas, not Willem's
You got me confused. Mine do not look as smooth unfortunately.
You got me confused. Mine do not look as smooth unfortunately.
1/3 smoothing really helps, see the raw picture above.
Travel Day All....how am I doing last minute Laundry, washing Dishes, looking at REW data, AND posting in the Forum simultaneously??
Alex. Geez Man. Above 200hz...that is a NICE Plot! The "stuff" down below is your room getting all "Modal" on you. Lemme ask...What do YOU hear? Do you perceive any Bass issues?
If pushed, I would surmise that some Corner Trapping in your Room would be highly beneficial.
Curt
I would use the default filter SD Sharp.
See manual p. 20 DA Filter.
SD Sharp delivers the widest and most linear frequency response and lowest latency.
Thanks ramses.
1/3 smoothing, full range.
And just to precise (as I have posted other's graphs): these are my datas, not Willem's
Super jealous of this plot...
Noob, indeed a Very Encouraging bit of Data! To maybe add a bit of specificity to my earlier comment about Corner Trapping, consider that Corners are Acoustic Convergence Points in our Rooms. ALL ROOM MODES (H/W/L) are at Maximum Intensity in Corners. This is WHY our Parents made us Stand in the Corner when we misbehaved as Children.
If it's possible for You to address this, it is my opinion that it would be beneficial. Feel free to perhaps reach out to James for a more Scientific assesment.
Best to You!!
Curt
Thanks all for your comments and advices!
I did have bass issues before the REW calibration, but with my EQ, it's fine so far to my ear.
I will look up the bass traps, but due to my room configuration (radiator...) I have not much space for some bass traps...
Alex!
Your Listening enjoyment is all that matters. If YOU are happy, then we are all happy with You. That's what the RME Forum is all about. Good Job!!
Curt
Noob, indeed a Very Encouraging bit of Data! To maybe add a bit of specificity to my earlier comment about Corner Trapping, consider that Corners are Acoustic Convergence Points in our Rooms. ALL ROOM MODES (H/W/L) are at Maximum Intensity in Corners. This is WHY our Parents made us Stand in the Corner when we misbehaved as Children.
If it's possible for You to address this, it is my opinion that it would be beneficial. Feel free to perhaps reach out to James for a more Scientific assesment.
Best to You!!
Curt
This is very true. Corners increase dB by a significant margin (corner loading).
I was having a play around with REW the other day and, whilst moving the UMIK 1, the SPL meter increased dramatically the more I moved the mic towards the boundary.
A 10dB increase at one point... :0
I remember a rehearsal of different speakers in a HiFi shop. They positioned the speakers not following the symmetry of the room.
Using this positioning of speakers the Dr Gauder Berlina RC 3 sounded phantastic presenting a room/stage that was unbelievable deep.
I am wondering whether this special positioning against room symmetry gives certain advantages because it seems to me that you might avoid a lot of 90° reflections in corners by that.
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Any experiences in that regards ?
I remember a rehearsal of different speakers in a HiFi shop. They positioned the speakers not following the symmetry of the room.
Using this positioning of speakers the Dr Gauder Berlina RC 3 sounded phantastic presenting a room/stage that was unbelievable deep.
I am wondering whether this special positioning against room symmetry gives certain advantages because it seems to me that you might avoid a lot of 90° reflections in corners by that.+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Agree with you on this, due to the angles of both the listening position and speakers, it creates reflections which are not running parallel with each other which causes less cancellations etc.
That's my take on it anyway.
Hi,
Please find Willem's results this time
Ramses!
Thanks for stopping in! I wish I could make some Bold Assertion (or even offer a seemingly convincing line of BS) to explain in some way the experience you had at the HiFi Shop. Speaker Placement within a Room is absolutely everything, and the ideal placement for a given room sometimes runs counter to our sensibilities of what we think SHOULD be. While I wouldn't be caught violating speaker symmetry rules with respect to listening position, the Floor Plan at my house mandates an asymmetric speaker placement with regards to Side Walls. It is hardly my vision of "Ideal", but it works far better than I could have ever imagined. Different Modal Excitation behaviors, etc is perhaps where the Truth lives.
Best Regards,
Curt
Thanks Alexandre for posting this graph. I am not sure what to make of it other than that the issues seem to be concentrated in the bass area, with the 25 Hz as the biggest offender. As I think I wrote before, this may well not be a room mode problem, but resonating sliding doors. The room has a semi open plan design, with large and heavy (each about 2.5 x 2.5 meter) sliding doors opening to my wife's study at one side and to the dining room at the other end. When I play sweeps I hear them resonate at some low frequencies. So I gues what I should do is play sweeps/test tones with known frequencies, so I can see if the doors' resonance is indeed at 25 Hz. Is there such a facility in REW?
Hi,
Please find Willem's results this time
Noob, Merci Beaucoup for giving Willy an assist!
Dr.Willem,
Above 100hz, a generally excellent, even-looking Plot. The retained energy down low isn't so excellent. These frequencies can be really difficult to address, SOOOO!!!
I might simply revert to my old, standby solution, and suggest that you fashion a Lo-Cut/Room Gain Compensation Filter in B1 of your ADI-2DAC. The RME unit makes this easy, and you AREN'T losing Bass. Trust me...
In the end, all that really matters are YOUR Perceptions of SQ. I'd wager that "Stage Noise" in many Classical Music Recordings is quite robust. On a Positive note, Your EDM, Deep House, and 8bit Collection would most certainly sound ethereal!
Best Regards,
Curt
Here I go again...
Willem, as I sit here (now at Home!) and Pontificate on matters... I can't bring myself to cast any doubt on your Door Resonance theory. Maybe have Frau Jongman place her hands firmly on the Door while you repeat the Sweep to see if that dampening effect is reflected in the data. Else...Room Gain effects are high on my list of Suspects.
Yes my amateurish interpretation was that things are fine above 100 Hz, or from even a bit lower than that. As I wrote, my question is how to explain the issues below that, and particularly the 25 Hz peak and its very obvious effect. Mind you, this is using the Antimode 8033 room eq for the subwoofer. I think I really need to identify the cause before I can try a cure.
I can, of course try a more aggressive filter on the RME, but I am already using a quite strong one. Maybe I should widen it, or even, as you say, use a high pass filter rather than a peak filter. If this is a room mode problem, I may have to contemplate a second subwoofer as well, also to have a smoother response over a wider area.
But first, is there a test tone somewhere in REW that I can use to establish the frequency of my sliding doors' resonance? Alternatively, yes indeed human dampers, but I need two...
Download a test tone. Use that with the RTA function in REW.
BE WARNED...Playing Pure Tones at high levels can be damaging to equipment!! It's not our plan to break your gear. Proceed only with great caution!!
If it can help: an online free tones generator
https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/
Thanks. Yes I know some caution is required.
Willem,
Also curious that the Peaky "whatever it is" at 25hz is exactly Half of your AC Mains frequency.
Some years ago, I chased a Ghost at 30hz that turned out to be the Compressor Motor in my Refrigerator...on our 60hz Mains Freq here in the US. Hmmmm!!
This might just be a ridiculous "theory" as an external noise intrusion like a Motor would remain at a constant amplitude throughout the duration of the test, but I digress...
Open up the RTA function of REW perhaps and see what's there. No Tones....just silence. Might be enlightening.
Curt
Indeed, or the floorheating pump. It may be long search.
Curt brings up a fair point.
I used the RTA function yesterday just to learn how to use it more than anything.
I noticed a continuous harmonic in the 15-35hz range which confused me as it wouldn't go away.
Turns out, it is the transformer hum from my house alarm.
The box is in the hallway/stairs so not in the same room yet the UMIK picked up this hum over the background noise which, at the time was around 40dB.
Hope this helps you Willem.
I am afraid I have not yet had time to generate more sweeps and investigate the nasty low frequency peaks, and do some more reading. However, I have not forgotten the project. So this will be continued.
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