1 (edited by kol.ut.shan 2019-10-08 18:42:05)

Topic: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Hi,

currently I use 3 RayDats synched to each other via the internal cable with 1 master card and 2 slave cards. I would like to expand my setup to have more channels so my question is, is it possible to add another RayDat to my system? And if 3 cards is the limit, could I expand my system with 1 Fireface UFX+ connected via Thunderbolt?
Thanks for any help!

2 (edited by ramses 2019-10-08 20:37:06)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Manual chapter 15 tells you that the current driver supports up to three cards.

What do you mean by expanding your system with UFX+ ?

Do you mean
A) 3 x RayDAT and 1 x UFX+ or
B) do you want to replace the 3 RayDATs with one UFX+ ?

to A)
RayDAT and UFX+ use different ASIO driver, so your DAW can either load RayDAT or UFX+ ASIO driver, not both.
So you have by this either access to the UFX+ or to the three RayDATs

The Limitation of using 3x RayDAT is, that you can only route between channels inside of one RayDAT card.

to B)
I don't know what port types you require and how many of them.

The RayDAT is a 72 channel interface, 3x 72 = 216 channels, fully digital
The RayDAT has separated AES and SPDIF channels, 2x MIDI

The UFX+ is a 188 channel interface, partially analog, partially digital, with preamps, instr. inputs etc.
ADAT2 and AES channel are not really separated but kind of bridged.

If you need a lot of ADAT ports, then you need to buy ADI-648 additionally and connect it to the MADI bus.
https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-648.html
But then the MADI bus is full.

An alternative to that would be to get a MADIface XT or the HDSPe MADI FX card.
The latter is really nice, I wrote this article about the product:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Pro-FS-BE/

The Full Review in this PDF:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … l-v1-1-pdf

The UFX+ is a fantastic device, if the type of channels are fine for you, take it, you can't do anything wrong with it.
MADI gives you a nice flexibility and you have DURec.

The HDSPe MADI FX is nice if you need multiple MADI busses. Its the only card with a full implementation of FX chip and it has a very unique driver which uses only system resources for those audio channels that are active. More details in the article above.

Also a very nice combination is UFX+ and Octamic XTC,.
Because the XTC can be configured in TM FX as so called AUX device, its then like a channel strip in TM FX.
By this you can remote control nearly all functions of the XTC and store the settings digitally in snapshots.
The XTCs Mic inputs can also be used as line level inputs (A/D converter).
It can also be used as format converter between ADAT, AES, MADI.
And it supports class compliant mode to be used as recording interface for an iPAD. Lots of features !
More information in these two  blog articles that I wrote:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Cber-MADI/

You can use the UFX+ also very nicely with USB3. If you choose a 3x shielded quality USB3 cable from Lindy, then you can use even 5m long USB3 cable, which gives you much flexibility to place PC / recording interface.
One of the uniq features of the UFX+ Thunderbolt driver is that it supports the pitch function, which is not possible with the MADIface driver and its USB transfer modes.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Thank you for your answer. Basically what I'm trying to achive is to find a way to expand my current 3x RayDat setup. I have my 3 cards fully utilized and I like to add more channels. As it seems there is a 3 card limit per system, I hoped that its maybe possible to expand the system with 1x UFX+, which I now know is not possible.
If its possible to add a HDSPe Madi to expand the RayDats this would work also and the only thing then needed would be some Madi converter to add analog ins and outs I guess?

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Whats not clear to me, what other equipment you have that you connect to the RayDAT.
Obviously you connect them currently via ADAT.
Therefore I made the proposal to take a recording interface with MADI like the UFX+ and then to use ADI-648.
But maybe you have AD/DA converter with MADI port, then you could of course connect them directly to MADI.
Or do you want to have "green field" and start over newly ?

UFX+ and M-32 Pro AD and M-32 Pro DA ?

Please tell your full picture, otherwise its tricky to make a good recommendation.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

5 (edited by kol.ut.shan 2019-10-08 21:06:30)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Here is my Setup:
3x RayDat cards:

RayDat 1: connected to 1x Ferrofish A16mk2 + 1x Ferrofish Pulse 16 (used for outboard mixing and fx equipment)
RayDat 2: connected to 4x Behringer ADA8200 (used for Synths / Drum Machines etc.)
RayDat 3: connected to 4x Behringer ADA8000 (also used for Synths)

The goal (in my Studio) is, to have everything fully connected and added into Cubase as a device. By that I have the best routing and recording options available. This is working rock solid and I don't need to spend time plucking cables in and out and just can be creative. I'm planning to add some more stuff to my Studio and therfore need a way to add more channels smile

6

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

You should be able to add a fourth card, the driver internally supports at least 7. In TM FX card number 4 can be selected by Shift click or Ctrl click on '1' (can't remember exactly).

Note that this is not officially supported and not guaranteed to work. We had specialists with 7 MADI cards in one system, but the normal computer can not take such a load. Whatever you try and do, we will not feel responsible. A proper solution is to change the whole system to MADI.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

7 (edited by ramses 2019-10-08 22:08:35)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Your prerequisites:

1. you have currently 3x 32 analog IN/OUT = 96 analog IN/OUT
2. you plan to expand this solution, lets assume to 128 analog IN/OUT
3. you want to have full routing capabilities across all channels !!!
4. assumed you want to keep the current equipment and not buy MADI capable AD/DA converter

In this case you need one recording interface that supports at minimum 2 MADI buses.
The following recording interfaces would be applicable for this purpose:
- MADIface XT (USB3 / external PCIe), 3 MADI busses
- HDSPe MADI FX (PCIe), 3 MADI busses

If you keep the current AD/DA converter you have the advantage, that everything can be plugged directly with TS/TRS plugs.

HDSPe MADI FX
+ MADI Bus 1 -> ADI-648 #1 (8x ADAT IN/OUT)
                                       ADAT 01-02 IN/OUT: FFA16MK
                                       ADAT 03-04 IN/OUT: FF Pulse 16
                                       ADAT 05       IN/OUT: ADA8200#1
                                       ADAT 06       IN/OUT: ADA8200#2
                                       ADAT 07       IN/OUT: ADA8200#3
                                       ADAT 08       IN/OUT: ADA8200#4
+ MADI Bus 2 -> ADI-648 #2 (8x ADAT)
                                       ADAT 01       IN/OUT: ADA8200#5
                                       ADAT 02       IN/OUT: ADA8200#6
                                       ADAT 03       IN/OUT: ADA8200#7
                                       ADAT 04       IN/OUT: ADA8200#8
                                       ADAT 05       IN/OUT: ADA8200#9 (new, future expansion)
                                       ADAT 06       IN/OUT: ADA8200#10 (new, future expansion)
                                       ADAT 07       IN/OUT: ADA8200#11 (new, future expansion)
                                       ADAT 08       IN/OUT: ADA8200#12 (new, future expansion)


RME HDSPe Madi FX €1549
RME ADI 648            €2499
RME ADI 648            €2499
====================
TOTAL                      €6547

Alternatively:
RME HDSPe Madi FX €1549
Ferrofish A32 AD/DA converter €1999 (MADI Bus 1)
Ferrofish A32 AD/DA converter €1999 (MADI Bus 1)
Ferrofish A32 AD/DA converter €1999 (MADI Bus 2)
===================================
TOTAL                      €7546

I would consider Option B, because
- only 3-4 AD/DA converter to be managed
- less heat requirements with only 3-4 devices
- same AD/DA converter and quality across all ports
- more options by MADI cabling (up to 2km between devices) if your setup should be split across rooms
- less MADI cables between devices compared to ADAT cabling
- cabling to a few patch bays might be better operateable compared having all on the back (more error prone)

Additional cost by:
- 4th Ferrofish A32 device for future expansion
- needs DB25 <-> XLR patchbays which adds additional costs

Refinance by:
- selling the old stuff

Optional extensions of the setup:
- ARC USB
- ADI-2 Pro FS to be connected to i.e. the AES port of the HDSPe MADI FX

Alternatively 88.2/96 kHz Setup limited to 96 channels
RME HDSPe Madi FX                     € 1549
RME HDSPe Opto-X                      €   359   (3rd optical MADI bus)
Ferrofish A32 AD/DA converter    € 1999   (MADI Bus 1)
Ferrofish A32 AD/DA converter    € 1999   (MADI Bus 2)
Ferrofish A32 AD/DA converter    € 1999   (MADI Bus 3)
======================================
TOTAL                                         € 7905

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

8 (edited by kol.ut.shan 2019-10-08 22:09:43)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Thanks for the very detailed answer (ramses & MC)! Now I have 3 options (your A&B + MCs 4th RayDat) and all of those have their pros and cons obviously. It would be great to have less devices to take care of but that advantage has a high price tag.
The 4th RayDat seems like the cheapest way with the risk of not working. I have a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master board with a i9 9900k as a CPU. I guess this should be enough to handle the bandwith on the PCIe bus...

I need to think and calculate that through now, so thanks again for your input smile

9 (edited by ramses 2019-10-08 22:11:28)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

I reedited pros and cons and added / highlighed possibility for a 88.2/96 kHz setup, if wanted.
If you should consider to go MADI I would consolidate all devices because the investment into the two MADI/ADAT converter is alone €5000 which brings you not a real additional advantage, simply many ADAT ports, but thats all.
You still would have a lot of devices, a lot of ADAT cabling and not better AD/DA converter.
So either 4th RayDAT or consolidate completely.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

10 (edited by kol.ut.shan 2019-10-08 22:15:23)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Thanks for that, but I guess 48kHz should be sufficient...

Edit:
yeah I also think thats either 4th RayDat or to fully migrate to MADI

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Also consider in the consolidated solution.
You need quite a lot DB25 <-> XLR breakout boxes which also cost some money
You also need new cables, as you need then XLR to TRS/TS.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Or something like that: https://www.thomann.de/de/digidesign_db … nake_4.htm and lots of patchbays
The more I think about it, the more attractiv a 4th RayDat gets...

13 (edited by ramses 2019-10-08 22:26:19)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

kol.ut.shan wrote:

Or something like that: https://www.thomann.de/de/digidesign_db … nake_4.htm and lots of patchbays
The more I think about it, the more attractiv a 4th RayDat gets...

Good point, also possible, didn't think about that, thanks.
Did you see also DB25 to TS ?

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

I found it on some US based online shops

15 (edited by ramses 2019-10-09 07:43:34)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Do you have enough room in your PC for a 4th RayDat ?

In my system it wouldn't be possible, I have a Fractal Design big tower allowing for 9 Slots at max:
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/fra … 83667.html
My server mainboard has 6 PCI sockets
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/sup … 64779.html

My GPU needs already 2 slots and I need some extra cards.
I would need a small graphic card (1 Slot) and then I could add 4 RayDAT to my system
and would place RayDAT and daugther card according to the schema below.
Note: 3 of the 4 RayDATs would even be able to use PCIe Lanes coming directly from the CPU.
I really like the distribution of Lanes of this server board:

1b   - no socket
GPU - PCIe 3.0 x16 socket, Lanes from CPU
1a   -  PCIe 3.0 x4  socket, Lanes from CPU
2a   -  PCIe 3.0 x8  socket, Lanes from CPU
3a   -  PCIe 3.0 x8  socket, Lanes from CPU
4a   -  PCIe 2.0 x4  socket, Lanes from Chipset
2b   -  PCIe 2.0 x2  socket, Lanes from Chipset
3b   - no PCIe socket
4b   - no PCIe socket

But currently I use the slots this way and I think if you want to play 4 RayDATs then this will be a pure recording system, not like my setup, which is a multi purpose ultra silent system, that even allows gaming (GTX 980).
- empty
- GPU
- GPU
- USB 3.1 gen2 -> 2 external Backup disks (10TB, 4 TB)
- Sonnet Allegro Pro (4x FL1100 USB3 chip) -> UFX+, ADI-2 Pro FS, optional: UFX+ on mobile rack
- RayDAT_a (as reserve card, can connect Monitors also directly via AES)
- RayDAT_b
- USB2 extension ports from main board
- USB2 extension ports from main board

Please ignore the labeling on the right side of this graphics, its an version, meanwhile I changed the layout slightly after I added a PCIe card for USB3.1 gen 2 with UASP support to be able to perform fast backups also on external disks.

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/1819-Supermicro-X10Sri-F-Slotbelegung-jpg/

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/1731-X10SRi-F-Block-Diagram-jpg/

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

16 (edited by kol.ut.shan 2019-10-09 15:34:08)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

I have installed my GPU vertically and my case also has 9 slots. And I'll also put my UAD-2 Octo card into an external Thunderbolt 3 case - so there should be enough room for another RayDat. If necessary I could even use my 2nd PCIex16 slot as I wouldn't mind that the GPU would run at x8 speed (I have a seperate machine for gaming). Luckily my board has lots of USB2 + USB3 + USB3.1 and even USBc already on board so there is no need for additional expansion cards. I'm currently looking for a reasonable deal for the 4th RayDat to try everything out soon. I'l keep you posted smile

Edit: Maybe I even have the opportunity to get a HDSPe Madi card. I've already bought another Ferrofish A16MK2 which also has a Madi port and up to 4 could be daisy chained.

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Oh, you have Apple ?

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

a hackintosh and on a seperate ssd Windows 10

19 (edited by ramses 2019-10-09 18:14:01)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Are external thunderbolt cabinets with PCIe cards like i.e. graphics card also working for Win10 ?
So could one use i.e. Sonnet external Thunderbolt Cabinets also for Win10 ?

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

I believe so and will test it also on Win 10!

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

I just grabbed a HDSPe Madi for 350 € from some Studio in Hamburg. Let’s see how that will turn out smile

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Good luck !

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

23 (edited by kol.ut.shan 2019-10-13 15:12:56)

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

I have some updates:

  • The master clock comes from the Madi card and all 3 RayDats are internally synched

  • In Windows 10 all 4 cards (3x RayDat & 1x Madi) are visible in HDSPe Settings and TotalMix and everything is working fine and like expected

  • In MacOS 10.14.6 sometimes 2x RayDats and 1x Madi are visible (only 3 devices can be displayed in the menu)but most of the time only 3x RayDats (this changes suddenly and without any knowable pattern after reboots). In TotalMix all cards are always visible. All channels are visible and assignable in Cubase regardless of visibility in HDSPe Settings.

    • If the Madi is visible in HDSPe Settings, IN & OUT Audio between TotalMix / Cubase to a Ferrofish A16Mk2 (via Madi Synch) is working -
      also the Status LED is green

    • If the Madi is not visible only OUT Audio is working from Cubase - also the Status LED is red

MC wrote:

You should be able to add a fourth card, the driver internally supports at least 7. In TM FX card number 4 can be selected by Shift click or Ctrl click on '1' (can't remember exactly).

Note that this is not officially supported and not guaranteed to work. We had specialists with 7 MADI cards in one system, but the normal computer can not take such a load. Whatever you try and do, we will not feel responsible. A proper solution is to change the whole system to MADI.

I know that none of this is supported nor recommended by RME Audio but is there anything I can do or are there any settings I could change?

Thank you!

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Just a random idea, maybe it could help to use different PCIe slots for the MADI card ?
Look for information, whether certain PCIe Slots share PCIe lanes with another PCIe slot.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win7 Prof, Cubase 9.5, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/DAC, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

I've tried that but it has no effect - same behavior...

26

Re: Combining more than 3x RayDats

Indeed the industrial and media guys doing the crazy things (7 MADI cards...) are always Windows users. No one ever tried such under Mac OS, sorry.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME