1 (edited by chj 2019-11-01 12:52:32)

Topic: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

Most likely of ignorance, I have a couple of questions on use of the DigiFace USB:

1. SOLVED, IGNORE The asiodriver has samplerate "greyed" out, unless I disable start with Windows (10 pro). Please explain why this is happening, as I can find no information in the user manual. What I want? To freely set sample rate. Normally I use 192 all over, but e.g. to play Roon 5.1 tracks, it is mandatory to set 48.

2. I have Samsung TV that per claim and regardless outpours SPDIF PCM 5.1 (or 7.1), from its HDMI input. I am unsure, but I assume the TV channels originating these streams are using 48 as samplerate. When I connect this output to Digiface USB, Totalmix does not show all 6 channels, only 2. These are available for monitoring on Phone out.

Is there a way to have Totalmix present me all 6 channels? I have a DSP task on the Front Left and Right only, as well as a need to downmix and split the Centre channel on the Front L and R, respectively.

3. SOLVED, IGNORE The WIN/CTRLPANEL/RECORDING/RME/ADVANCED presents only various 192 options ranging from 1 to 8 channels. Why is other sample rates not offered, like the 48 I need? Is this "forced 192" the cause of my problems stated above? If so, WHERE must I set 48 as samplerate in order to enable RME for that samplerate?

4. The Digiface USB does not recognize AC3 wrapping. Correct?

2 (edited by ramses 2019-11-01 12:41:13)

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

AFAIK the application sets the samplerate when being configured to use the RME ASIO driver.
I do not own the Digiface USB and am running Win7, but I use the same MADIface driver for UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro FS.

If no application is running (using the ASIO driver), then the sample rate is selectable.

As soon as I start an application which uses the ASIO driver (cubase or MusicBee), then the sample rate is locked at the value configured by the application. And it makes sense to lock it then, becasue the recording interface is not design to operate at different sample rates (internally). You would need SRC (Sample Rate Converter) to be able to connect external devices with different sample rate compared to internal clock setting.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

Yes, you are correct of course. It is even my own SoundPimp software so I should have remembered. BUT, now I have 48 set as samplerate, and there is a SPDIF PCM 5.1 on Digiface input. So now I can concentrate on this qurstion: Why are not all 6 channels shown in totalmix? (only 2)

4 (edited by ramses 2019-11-01 12:57:13)

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

ADAT and S/PDIF over optical medium (TOSLINK) are different protocols being spoken over the link.

SPDIF only supports 2 channels @44.1 - 192 kHz

ADAT supports
- 8 channels @44.1/48 kHz
- 4 channels @88.2/96 kHz (double speed)
- 2 channels @176.4/192 kHz (quad speed)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

to 2. HDMI and SPDIF are two different things
Digiface only support ADAT and SPDIF on all of its 4 I/O ports.
And SPDIF only supports 2 channels.

> Is there a way to have Totalmix present me all 6 channels?
TotalMix FX has nothing to do with it. This is a mixer on a higher level of operation.
Its physics / driver level, therefore you need to configure in the Digiface Driver Settings, whether the port shall work with ADAT or SPDIF protocol.
If your TV has an optical output (TOSLINK), then you need to find out what protocols it supports.
Usually SPDIF, but this supports only 2 channels.
If ADAT then it would support 8 channels, but only @44.1/48 kHz Sample Rate.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

See manual chapter 8.3 in regards to AC-3.

What do you mean by AC-3 wrapping ? Can you please detail what you want to achieve ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

No audio interface that I am aware of can decode Dolby AC-3 (which you or Samsung call SPDIF PCM). You can record the raw data, but need a decoder to get audio instead of pumping noise. That is usually extra hardware with license fees, so has no place in audio interfaces but AVRs.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

8 (edited by chj 2019-11-02 18:21:58)

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

My aim is (or probably; was) to fetch the 5.1 surround channels into a pc, via Digiface USB, for various DSP. I am the developer of SoundPimp.com (listen to demos), an audio enhancer of the error corrective type. It counteract in the digital domain the so-called crosstalk between speakers and ears in the (subsequent) acoustic domain. Thus:

What confused me, is that when feeding the RME unit with 5.1 surround outpouring from my TV, as a function of the TV's HDMI input, then the RME unit could only see the two stereo channels. This is utterly confusing since it is SPDIF coming in, and therefore it should not recognize anything!

Trying the same from software playback (a video with surround 5.1), I used the MediaPlayerClassic Home Cinema which is based on the AC3Filter software. In the AC3Filter, one can toggle the use of SPDIF, AC3, etc.

In AC3Filter: When not using SPDIF, then TotalMix and the RME unit sees all the 6 channels. When using SPDIF, there is no reaction (i.e. passthrough). This is what I expected, ALSO on the input of the RME unit.

THEREFORE, I believe the optical SPDIF surround input signal from external device contains a multiplexed system in two modules. One module is the SPDIF 5.1 that RME does not detect, and the other is a normal stereo channel in some PCM format that RME do indeed detect.

This is the only explanation I have. Any comments?

One question: Does the RME Digiface USB provide SPDIF pass-through also on its inputs?

Anyway, to reach my aim, I would need a new unit that could extract 5.1 from HDMI (i.e. from the TV decoder), and outpour always 6 PCM channels that the RME can detect. Since that is probably not a very large market, I assume I am stuck. I would need either a physical unit that converts, or a software module on the PC that could convert the 5.1 streams, probably involving licensing fees to Dolby & Co and therefore not in existence. Any comments or suggestions?

Regarding my terminology that was "not approved"; PCM 5.1, this is the terminology used by AC3Filter, and I have seen it other places in various discussions.

All this means that this thread may get status as SOLVED. Thanks for all comments.

9

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

You obviously missed some basics about SPDIF. This is a digital data format that can transfer up to 2 channels at 24 bit resolution at up to 192 kHz. The 2 channel 24 bit PCM or 'audio data' in it can be whatever you like. In case of AC-3 it is non-PCM data, therefore flagged as 'non-audio' in the stream's channel status header.

So whenever you transfer more than two channels via SPDIF you will not use straight PCM data, you will use lossy compresssion. The sound of this data is like chopped noise unless decoded.

> This is utterly confusing since it is SPDIF coming in, and therefore it should not recognize anything!

Don't you see the contradiction yourself? It is SPDIF format so it logically is detected.

> Trying the same from software playback (a video with surround 5.1), I used the MediaPlayerClassic Home Cinema which is based on the AC3Filter software. In the AC3Filter, one can toggle the use of SPDIF, AC3, etc.

What that means is downmixing to stereo or not. Only stereo is real PCM and therefore compatible to anything SPDIF.

> In AC3Filter: When not using SPDIF, then TotalMix and the RME unit sees all the 6 channels. When using SPDIF, there is no reaction (i.e. passthrough). This is what I expected, ALSO on the input of the RME unit.

The solftware decodes AC-3 to 6 separate PCM channels. How can there be a 'passthrough' to only 2 channels? You need 6 channels then to transmit this to another device. But SPDIF has only 2. ADAT would have 8, but you don't have an 8-channel ADAT DAC. And anyway, this is not what you want, you want it to be re-encoded to AC-3.

A 'passthrough' is possible by sending the SPDIF input unaltered to an SPDIF output, via TM FX 0 dB routing. That works. But is useless for you as there is no decoding and encoding in-between, so you don't have access to the audio data.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

10 (edited by chj 2019-11-03 22:08:04)

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

Thanks for your patience, then, but I did not fully grasp the response, hence I give a wrap-up in case it help others:

I know that SPDIF is 2ch with PCM up to 192-24, and that 5.1 can be sent within a PCM frame as "non PCM data". This is not the problem. (BTW, one of my DACs sounds clearly better and more refined when fed 192-24 from RME Digiface usb, than it does from its own USB connection).

I go back to my previous contribution. My assumption was correct. The RME Digiface gets a SPDIF signal containing both PCM data and 5.1 data, multiplexed, out of which the existence in the stream of 5.1 is verified by connecting it to another AVR receiver. It is a common way of doing it, and the transmitter says "here are two options for you, choose the one you can handle". Therefore RME grabs the PCM part and shows it as a 2channel PCM reception. It was this multiplexing, as I call it, that created confusion for me as I was unaware of it.

This cause a new question: What happens with the 5.1 part of the transmission when the RME accepts the PCM part? Is it passed through or thrown away? If passed through, then e.g. a Dolby decoder positioned as a VST plugin in some DAW may be able to detect it, hence my question.

Background information on the "Multiplexing":

1. The TV service provider:
I asked a friend in NRK, the national (and main) broadcaster of Norway. NRK uses this format: "HE-AACv1, 64 kbps for stereo plus an AC3 carrier at 448 kbps. In the AC3 carrier there is multiplexing of stereo and 5.1."

This format is found on the optical out on the TV decoder, and yes, creates chopped noise when connected to the RME unit. BTW, this is the only TV channel in my menu creating this effect, so looks like NRK is alone in this market with an AC3 wrapper.

2. The (Samsung in my case) TV:
When this same signal format instead is fed the TV via HDMI, the TV outpours on its optical out a format that is probably stripped of AC3, in that now once of a sudden it is readable as stereo PCM by the RME unit. The RME units picks the PCM part of the (assumed still) multiplexed signal. Therefore, it is indeed correct to state that the TV outpours PCM on the SPDIF, even if it is only 50% of the total transmitted.

3. This multiplexed type of signal comes again in the AC3Filter software package mentioned in my last contribution. The user manual states: "Normally when Use SPDIF option is enabled, the filter publishes two output formats: SPDIF and PCM at the same time". See here: http://www.ac3filter.net/wiki/AC3Filter_%26_SPDIF. As there is an option to uncheck "send PCM as well", it was verified that the behaviour of RME Totalmix was as stated above.

BTW, again, (not in any way related to RME, but for completeness), one problem I had a little earlier on, was that I could not get hold of the Center/LFE channels for downmix into Front Left and Right. This aim has a reason; that these speakers are a much higher quality system. Searching for a solution, I found the decoder has a switch between STEREO or DOLBY. It seems clear that the decoder itself does not downmix, it just use either the stereo or the 5.1 part of the multiplexed signal. Thus, we discovered that many main tv channels in Norway, among them Eurosport that sends all the soccer games for the time being, DOES NOT downmix center/lfe into the STEREO signal delivered to Cable Tv companies. And since it is the Center channel that most often contains most of the "soccer speaker" commenting the match, therefore, those Cable tv subscribers either selecting STEREO in the decoder, or that do not have surround engine in their TV, for these customers, "the speaker" is almost inaudible, or at least, audible in a most unsatisfactory manner. So I am not alone having trouble grasping it all, it seems.

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

2. The (Samsung in my case) TV:
When this same signal format instead is fed the TV via HDMI, the TV outpours on its optical out a format that is probably stripped of AC3, in that now once of a sudden it is readable as stereo PCM by the RME unit. The RME units picks the PCM part of the (assumed still) multiplexed signal. Therefore, it is indeed correct to state that the TV outpours PCM on the SPDIF, even if it is only 50% of the total transmitted.

I don't think this is true. I think it is just plain pcm.Not multiplexed. Just stereo 16 bit 48k, which might be encodes as dolby pro logic (which is a stereo file containing encodes LRCS)

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

This is what happened to me recently when struggling with a related issue:

We played an ac3 5.1 audio file via HDMI to a Samsung TV and out of its optical output to a consumer 5.1 system which we use in the studio for testing. The consumer system was receiving Dolby Digital: all good.

We merged the ac3 file with the video (h265) using an mp4 container. Playing it on the RME all 6 Channels were there (software decoded by VLC), just as expected.
When trying the video via HDMI on the Samsung screen we were using the same optical connection to the consumer 5.1 system and all we received was a stereo signal (with the option to upscale it to Pro Logic).

I am still puzzled and trying to understand why.

13

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

Yes, there is some more wrongly worded or confused information in post 10. The multiplexed part does NOT relate to the content of the SPDIF signal, The choice what to send out at SPDIF optical is done at the transmitter side alone, means you have to set up your TV either for AC-3 or SPDIF via optical.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

14 (edited by chj 2020-10-24 17:32:24)

Re: How to "discover" SPDIF PCM 5.1 from DigiFace USB input?

S/PDIF is a data link layer protocol as well as a set of physical layer specifications for carrying digital audio signals between devices and components over either optical or electrical cable. S/PDIF is based on the AES3 interconnect standard.

A common use for the S/PDIF interface is to carry compressed digital audio for surround sound as defined by the standard IEC 61937, to a home theatre receiver that supports Dolby Digital or DTS.

Another common use is to carry two channels of uncompressed digital audio from a CD player to an amplifying receiver, IOW PCM 2 channel information.

Thus, a common choice, as stated in my post 10, is to multiplex PCM and “some” compressed format on the SPDIF connection&protocol, done by the transmitter, and granting the receiver the option to choose one of them.

AC3, also called Dolby Digital, is an encoder/decoder example of such a compressed format that “runs in” the SPDIF connection, not to SPDIFs awareness.

Your sentence "The multiplexed part does NOT relate to the content of the SPDIF signal" is confusing.

Your sentence "means you have to set up your TV either for AC-3 or SPDIF via optical", is also confusing. You can choose between e.g. HDMI or SPDIF (normally optical on a TV, but sometimes physical). Dolby Digital is another TYPE of choice, for example, it is mutual exclusive to other Dolby formats, DTS, and similar. Normally, your home theater receiver will detect which format is present and set that automatically (so you do not choose anything on the receiver end).

But you can choose which multiplexed part to use; PCM or "some" compresses variant. But sometimes this option is not available, that also will be chosen by the receiver automatically, hence:

Regarding hshelter's problem, we have seen that too, and our anticipation is that the creator of the TV spdif receiver part has chosen to select the PCM part, hence, we are not hearing an extract from the AC3 stream, but the PCM that is part of the multiplexing on the SPDIF.

ONE REMAINING QUESTION:

I asked in a previous post how the RME driver will handle such a multiplexed signal consisting of PCM and some 5.1 or similar. Will the RME driver execute a pass-through on the non-PCM part, or will it remove it?

I REALLY like to know this, because we are using RME towards consumer equipment and then this is kind if important to know.