1 Topic by Robertm394 (edited by Robertm394 2020-01-02 04:54:14)

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Topic: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Which do you prefer between these two filters? I've read on the forum that Sharp is "the most accurate" filter overall. This makes me wonder what advantage SD Sharp has over Sharp... lower latency? How does that translate (if it does) into better sound?

Between the two filters, which do you prefer? I have a preference but won't mention it until later as I'm curious to hear what other people prefer.

If you had to choose one as the "better" filter overall for casual/non-professional settings, would you choose Sharp or SD Sharp and why?

2 Reply by MC

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Robertm394 wrote:

This makes me wonder what advantage SD Sharp has over Sharp... lower latency?

That is exactly what the manual says.

Robertm394 wrote:

How does that translate (if it does) into better sound?

It doesn't. Latency is about usability in live monitoring situations.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Hmm, which filter do you prefer for casual listening MC?

4 Reply by MC

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

I use Sharp.

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5 Reply by Robertm394 (edited by Robertm394 2020-01-03 21:27:49)

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

So MC would you say that in a casual listening situation, Sharp is the overall superior filter in terms of accuracy vs. SD Sharp?

Curious why SD Sharp is the default for the Dac since most presumably won't be using it for live monitoring vs. the Pro.

And do you have a second favorite filter you prefer/recommend for casual listening? Slow, NOS, etc.

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-01-03 23:11:59)

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Simply take what you prefer.
Your non-optimized room has much more impact than the very small differences of D/A filter.
I think you lose yourself too much in details before the really important things are done.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2020-01-04 02:12:20)

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Rob,

As Ramses notes...there are far greater influences upon SQ.   Pick a Filter, and move forward.  I Subtly like Sharp after careful comparison many months ago,  rather than opting for a Filter chosen by Committee.   Asking MC for his "Second Favorite" Filter?   He's an Engineer.  I don't think He has an emotional involvement with DAC Filters.   What next?  Favorite Pajamas?  Favorite BedTime Story?   Hot Chocolate?  With or WITHOUT Mini-Marshmallows?   It gets weird Rob...

As is covered in your User Manual, and Dozens of Posts in this Forum...SD Sharp is the default Filter because of its Low Latency (delay)   This Low Latency is very advantageous in a Studio Monitoring application where there can be multiple Signal Streams to be monitored,  but almost meaningless to the home listener who listens to just one.   An analogy:  Have you ever watched a YouTube Video where the Video and Audio aren't in Sync?  That's an example of a form of Latency .  Imagine now mixing a Recording where the individual tracks are each in a seemingly different time zone???

"Sharp" as many prefer, and "SD Sharp" as Many others (ie: Studios) prefer sound curiously alike...but vary in the way described earlier.   Do the Reading!

It's not a Quality matter, but rather that Low Latency filters such as SD Sharp are simply more well suited to the Studio environment.   What you prefer at home is "whatever"   

Until you've done the Blind, Level-Matched, A/B/X comparisons you cannot possibly know the vanishly small "differences" in the Sound from one filter to the next.   HiFi Magazine articles to the Contrary are merely propogating falsehoods.  They're often quite expert at this!

So...

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
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  • N00b
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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

And as usual, the idiophool hasn’t asking the good questions about what really matters is audio sound quality....

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9 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2020-01-04 03:27:16)

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Hi Noob!!!

At the end, it is simply mind-numbing to even attempt to find "IT" (that Soul Stirring Moment!) when the OP, despite numerous suggestions...doesn't seem to know what "IT" is!!   

Shooting Blind!   

Oh what Fun!

I just Love It when the typically Quiet, and Reserved Parisienne "Noob" steps in, and says:  Bullshit!!!

smile

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

10 Reply by Robertm394 (edited by Robertm394 2020-01-04 03:59:46)

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

N00b wrote:

And as usual, the idiophool hasn’t asking the good questions about what really matters is audio sound quality....

This forum is full of some pretty vile and toxic posters, and I know I'm not the first person to comment about that. Noob, I could not care less what some random internet poster thinks, especially someone small enough and insecure enough to feel the need to insult random people asking sincere questions about this product.

I don't come to this forum to be insulted or belittled by toxic forum bullies. Your lame insults say more about you than anyone else.

This is one of the most toxic internet forums I've ever been on with a handful of pissant bullies I've seen posting nasty stuff towards myself and quite a few other posters.

So many threads on this forum get derailed by the handful of toxic, pissant, wannabe know-it-all bullies that RME really ought to adopt some standards of decorum for forum behavior. This type of forum vibe is bad for creating repeat customers, IMO.

If RME ever comes out with a new Dac product for example, I and I'm sure other posters who have had similar experiences are going to be weighing the Dac's technical qualities with the knowledge that asking sincere questions about it will constantly subject them to the bottom of the barrel forum trolls that seem to populate this board.

11 Reply by MC

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

I agree that NOOb's reply above was neither necessary nor useful, and also looked kinda insulting to me. I would have deleted it but came too late (now I would have to delete your reply too).

That said I don't think this forum is full of trolls. It tries to stand on the same base as RME itself - objectivity and technical expertise. This contradicts subjectivity and the typical audiophile. I try to find a useful and informative balance between both, but other forums might be much better suited to discuss the ADI converters sound and similar topics.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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12 Reply by Robertm394 (edited by Robertm394 2020-01-04 05:27:04)

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Fair enough, but the Dac is by nature and by definition geared towards the Hi-Fi or "listening for pleasure" audience ("The ADI-2 DAC is the home and hi-fi optimized version of the ADI-2 Pro...").

That necessarily IMO introduces subjective assessment as a valid topic of discussion on this forum. Hi Fi is about "fidelity" but the overall goal I would argue is "pleasure" and "enjoyment," which are subjective rather than objective criteria.

Hence, IMO it is not at all unreasonable to inquire about the actual Dac designer's "favorite" and preferred filters for casual listening, in addition to (as I did) inquiring about the filters' measurable attributes. 

And like flies on * the trolls come out of the woodwork with personal attacks and derail yet another thread that actually started by adding some knowledge to the community -- now people know the Dac's designer prefers Sharp. This has motivated me to try out the Sharp filter for awhile, as I tended to stick with SD Sharp or NOS. That's useful. The insults are not. The forum may not be full of trolls, but there is a predictable handful that I see attacking posters (not just me) repeatedly. It adds nothing to the forum. And likely drives away interested customers.

13 Reply by MC

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Well, most of the customers you think about do not find their way into this forum, but post (and discuss) in others. That's a fact. I understand your arguments and view. The problem is where one draws the line. For example posts that claim night and day differences between the converter's sound with the included power supply via a battery deserve their doom, no matter if that drives away other customers. There is more to life than money.

That said I hope you can still do what you seem to do most of the time - enjoy our little baby.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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14 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2020-01-05 18:33:48)

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Rob,

If we can get you to invest a couple Pesos into a Mini-DSP "Umik" and run a few tests with REW...we can go far!

Consider that!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes
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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Precisely. Go for the room acoustics first. The good news is that the AD-2 has a number of parametric filters that can deal with the worst problems, not to mention tone and balance controls, and the magic dynamic loudness. Are you using all these unique features already?

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Re: Sharp vs. SD Sharp for casual listening -- which is "better?"

Just a a quick constructive answer smile
It really depends. On most recordings there is no difference noticeable. However the difference is the trade of between phase coherency and transient response.
phase linear filters will introduce preringing (which is sometimes audible) and minimal phase filteres will shift phase. Phase shifts alone are not audible.However if a song has a strong air band eq (especially on the master bus) it will shift the phase as well. And the combination can have negative impacts like comb filtering effects (but just on very high frequencies)...
After all that said: You have to try it out. I would guess that in 92% you wouldn't hear a difference at all and for 4% the minimal phase filter sounds better and for 4% the linear phase filter sounds better. That's why you can set it up by yourself smile
Best regards, Marcus