• exact
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Topic: ADI 2 amp or something else?

Hey, a new member on the forum, even though I've owned my ADI 2 for over half a year already and I'm very happy with it, even though it's a bit too advanced for my use.

I bought this thing to replace my Schiit Asgard 2 + Modi Multibit to stop me from constantly looking for the next thing to upgrade and the difference was staggering. The background went dead-silent. Didn't even realize the background had noise until I heard this. Can't say if other DACs would've done the same trick, maybe the problem was just my Modi Multibit.


But anyways,
Ever since I got it I've wondered: is the amp really TOTL or could you benefit from getting a separate amp, like the SMSL SP200? I've read opinions on both sides and I wanna know if there's anyone who's tried another high-end amp and compared the two.

And yes, I am completely happy with the amp, but I'm just wondering, since the dac-portion is universally considered world-class, if the amp is actually world-class too. I'm running LCD-2C for the foreseeable future, upgrading probably to the LCD-X/Arya next.

Thanks!

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-01-22 16:40:19)

  • ramses
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

Is there any "high end" forum thread going on these days somewhere ?
2nd person questioning this ...

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 14#p149814

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • exact
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

Yeah I read that topic, but I want to hear if anyone has actually tried the SP200/THX789 amp against this. I know amps are a weird discussion, especially when someone says they increase soundstage etc. but I want to hear this from people who have actually A/B'd the two, or something similar to those two.

  • ramses
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

Ah .. so this is HiFi .. you buy a high-end grade D/A converter and need then a "beautifier" behind it.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2020-01-23 01:48:18)

  • Registered: 2019-01-07
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

Hi Exact.  Your's is a new Name here. Welcome!

When you purchased your ADI-2DAC, You purchased a COMPLETE Design.    No Aspect of, nor Sub-System within the ADI-2 DAC escaped RME Engineering's Scrutiny.

   Smile, and KNOW that your ADI-2 DAC is providing you with the Quietest, Most Linear, and Capable Output allowed by Technology.    This has been proven by independent tests!    Save your Money, and quietly allow Tweak O Audio Bloggers to mislead someone else. smile  Your RME won't be needing their "Help" 

Enjoy your New Device!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes
  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 5

Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

I've been down this path! I got the SMSL SP200 and SPL Phonitor 2 with a good return policy should they make no difference. Headphones are Beyerdynamic T1 gen 2. I can tell you the built in amp is excellent and that the SP200 made NO audible difference. To me it sounded exactly the same so after 1 week I returned it. However, with the much more expensive Phonitor 2 there is a noticeable improvement. I'm no audiophile, so perhaps not the best at explaining differences between sounds, but the Phonitor 2 opened up the soundstage, it’s very clearly larger, sounds effortless with all music types and is more natural with certain instruments, such as cellos. After listening to the Phonitor 2 it's difficult to go back, but... I do want to stress again that the built in amp is excellent and that the difference between these 2 amps is not massive.

In summary, to better the built in amp you have to spend a lot more than the SP200 and even after buying one of the best headphone amps available the the difference is not always night and day. However, if you have the funds then, to my ears, the built in amp can be bettered.

  • exact
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

tramplite wrote:

I've been down this path! I got the SMSL SP200 and SPL Phonitor 2 with a good return policy should they make no difference. Headphones are Beyerdynamic T1 gen 2. I can tell you the built in amp is excellent and that the SP200 made NO audible difference. To me it sounded exactly the same so after 1 week I returned it. However, with the much more expensive Phonitor 2 there is a noticeable improvement. I'm no audiophile, so perhaps not the best at explaining differences between sounds, but the Phonitor 2 opened up the soundstage, it’s very clearly larger, sounds effortless with all music types and is more natural with certain instruments, such as cellos. After listening to the Phonitor 2 it's difficult to go back, but... I do want to stress again that the built in amp is excellent and that the difference between these 2 amps is not massive.

In summary, to better the built in amp you have to spend a lot more than the SP200 and even after buying one of the best headphone amps available the the difference is not always night and day. However, if you have the funds then, to my ears, the built in amp can be bettered.

Thank you! This is exactly the reply I was looking for. I get that everyone is gonna say ADI 2 is the best thing ever since it is their own forum so I take those comments with a huge grain of salt but your comment sounds very objective and non-biased. So getting an upgrade to the amp is gonna cost a ton from here on out, so I'll just stick to getting better headphones. Thank you again.

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-01-23 08:03:27)

  • ramses
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

The phonitor 2 has no digital input and thus no D/A conversion of its own.
So it completely "lives" from the D/A conversion quality of the ADI-2 DAC.

If the sound with the phonitor is better, then some trickery happens there, which pleases your ears more.
In other words the Phonitor alters the signal.

Or the signal is louder and for our ears louder is better.

When you tested the phonitor, were you using the plain signal or one of the two Phonitor features:
- Loudspeaker playback simulation on headphones
- Laterality control corrects uneven L/R loudness perception

Did you pay attention, to have really equal levels ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2020-01-23
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

As to why the Phonitor sounds better/different I'm not qualified to say. I bought both these amps fully expecting to return them both so, actually, I'm a bit annoyed that I do prefer it. I still have a week to return the Phonitor and I've tried my hardest to convince myself to do just that but every time I compare them I come away preferring the Phonitor.

I don't normally use any of the Phonitor extra features, just plain signal. As for levels I try to balance as near as possible but have only used my ears to do that.

  • Registered: 2020-01-23
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

exact wrote:
tramplite wrote:

I've been down this path! I got the SMSL SP200 and SPL Phonitor 2 with a good return policy should they make no difference. Headphones are Beyerdynamic T1 gen 2. I can tell you the built in amp is excellent and that the SP200 made NO audible difference. To me it sounded exactly the same so after 1 week I returned it. However, with the much more expensive Phonitor 2 there is a noticeable improvement. I'm no audiophile, so perhaps not the best at explaining differences between sounds, but the Phonitor 2 opened up the soundstage, it’s very clearly larger, sounds effortless with all music types and is more natural with certain instruments, such as cellos. After listening to the Phonitor 2 it's difficult to go back, but... I do want to stress again that the built in amp is excellent and that the difference between these 2 amps is not massive.

In summary, to better the built in amp you have to spend a lot more than the SP200 and even after buying one of the best headphone amps available the the difference is not always night and day. However, if you have the funds then, to my ears, the built in amp can be bettered.

Thank you! This is exactly the reply I was looking for. I get that everyone is gonna say ADI 2 is the best thing ever since it is their own forum so I take those comments with a huge grain of salt but your comment sounds very objective and non-biased. So getting an upgrade to the amp is gonna cost a ton from here on out, so I'll just stick to getting better headphones. Thank you again.

My pleasure. Save your money and enjoy a great product.

  • ramses
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

tramplite wrote:

As to why the Phonitor sounds better/different I'm not qualified to say. I bought both these amps fully expecting to return them both so, actually, I'm a bit annoyed that I do prefer it. I still have a week to return the Phonitor and I've tried my hardest to convince myself to do just that but every time I compare them I come away preferring the Phonitor.

I don't normally use any of the Phonitor extra features, just plain signal. As for levels I try to balance as near as possible but have only used my ears to do that.

Good luck on that. If you find something out then it would be nice to get an update.

If you have a DAW you could experiment with EQ settings and widening the stereo image a little bit to see, whether you can get effects that "sound familiar" into the direction of the sound of the phonitor ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • willem
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

Such comparisons are only valid if done level matched and blind. Using your ears really is not good enough to match levels - you need a pretty accurate volt meter because the brain always interprets louder as better, and this begins with differences of about 0.2 dB.
If you look at the measurement data it is obvious that there is nothing that can be improved. Human hearing is not that good (ask your dog) and gear such as the ADI-2 is way better than what you can hear. In short: we have reached sonic perfection, at least with this gear. Speakers and headphones are a different story, however.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

13 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2020-02-14 23:15:48)

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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

tramplite wrote:

As to why the Phonitor sounds better/different I'm not qualified to say. I bought both these amps fully expecting to return them both so, actually, I'm a bit annoyed that I do prefer it. I still have a week to return the Phonitor and I've tried my hardest to convince myself to do just that but every time I compare them I come away preferring the Phonitor.

I don't normally use any of the Phonitor extra features, just plain signal. As for levels I try to balance as near as possible but have only used my ears to do that.

I built myself a little switcher, consisting of two identical cables with 3.5mm stereo plugs, a 6.3mm stereo socket and a switch to select one of the 2 jacks. I mounted 3 banana connectors to the switch too, so I can connect 2 voltmeters for exact level calibration.

With this simple arrangement I can do blind (I simply do not know which cable is which when I plug them in, there's no marking) A/B tests between headphone amps.

This is an eye- or, if you like, ear-opener, how minor the difference between different amps is.
But, the slightest level difference changes what sounds better.

Even comparing a simple iPhone 5 headphone output to anything else shows no significant difference.


Per my profession I'm trained to A/B subtle differences between different sound settings.

To give you a relation: switching between the 5 DAC filters in ADI-2 is one magnitude more different than what happens between different headphone amplifiers.

I can reliable blind-pick my favorite filter "Sharp" out of the 5 offerings, the hit rate I have with only 2 different amps is by far lower, no matter what combination.


So, I suggest getting any type of (passive) A/B-box and check for yourself.
And get a cheapo voltmeter, the only thing that it needs to have is an 200mV AC range, to exactly set the levels before comparison.

It's really easy to fool oneself if you do the comparison non-blind.
Doing it blind is the most important part of every comparison.
The second important part is, having the possibility to uninterruptedly switch without pause between the options.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2020-01-23
  • Posts: 5

Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

My advice for those going down this route is to take the thoughts of reviewers and forums for what they are, personal opinions.

Buy your gear from those with a good home test or returns policy and try it yourself, extensively, for at least 2-3 weeks (so the new toy feeling can pass) then decide if you could go back. If you could then great you've saved some money and probably scratched that upgrading itch for good. If you couldn't then it was a worthwhile purchase so enjoy!

  • KaiS
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

This is exactly what I do and advocate too.

By doing blind comparison I even can overcome the "New Toy Syndrome" and the "The Bigger - (more shiny ... etc. -) The Better" feel.

Of course there might be other reasons besides sound quality to buy something.
For the RME ADI-2 Pro it's the convenience of having all in one box.

I already have DACs, Equalizers, Amps and everything, but having all in decent quality in one package let's me concentrate more on listening to music.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2020-02-10
  • Posts: 34

Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

tramplite wrote:

I've been down this path! I got the SMSL SP200 and SPL Phonitor 2 with a good return policy should they make no difference. Headphones are Beyerdynamic T1 gen 2. I can tell you the built in amp is excellent and that the SP200 made NO audible difference. To me it sounded exactly the same so after 1 week I returned it. However, with the much more expensive Phonitor 2 there is a noticeable improvement. I'm no audiophile, so perhaps not the best at explaining differences between sounds, but the Phonitor 2 opened up the soundstage, it’s very clearly larger, sounds effortless with all music types and is more natural with certain instruments, such as cellos. After listening to the Phonitor 2 it's difficult to go back, but... I do want to stress again that the built in amp is excellent and that the difference between these 2 amps is not massive.

In summary, to better the built in amp you have to spend a lot more than the SP200 and even after buying one of the best headphone amps available the the difference is not always night and day. However, if you have the funds then, to my ears, the built in amp can be bettered.

Which is the best Phonitor amp?

17 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

You might discuss this in the Phonitor forum...we're RME here...wink wink...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • exact
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

Yeah I've decided not to buy any external amp. Listening to music is so goddamn complicated: I've had my Massdrop EDC3-buds for almost two years now and always found them just fine, nothing extraordinary. Then last thursday while I'm riding on a bus I suddenly realize how good they sound, like they're a totally different pair of buds. And nothing's changed in the meantime, same music, same phone. And now I, again, find them just mundane. Same of course goes for my LCD-2C, some days they sound like the best thing ever and others like the worst thing ever.

  • Registered: 2020-02-10
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Re: ADI 2 amp or something else?

I loved the phonitor in mix with the rme adi-2 dac, very nice sound, not better than rme in the iem output but way better through the headphone out, way better