1 (edited by ericseaberg 2020-04-30 16:04:55)

Topic: Big time latency with BF Pro in standalone... SOLVED!!

This is the first time I've used the BF Pro as an input source into ProTools, and using the mixer within Totalmix is AWFUL!!!  I'd rather listen through ProTools with its latency and just deal with it... what am I doing wrong?

I've been in the audio business almost 50-years, working in some of the premiere recording/mastering facilities in LA/Hollywood/Burbank and know my way around this stuff. 

I've got a mic input feeding ProTools but monitoring through Totalmix... everything routed properly... HELP!!  We can't work this way, even though the docs say we should be able to.

Any help would be appreciated.

_____________________
Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
A.E.S. • S.M.P.T.E. • S.P.A.R.S. • I.E.E.E.

2 (edited by ramses 2020-04-30 08:52:28)

Re: Big time latency with BF Pro in standalone... SOLVED!!

> using the mixer within Totalmix is AWFUL

Sorry, but so it goes if you do not take the time to read important information about your product in the manual.

> I've been in the audio business almost 50-years, working in some of the premiere recording/mastering
> facilities in LA/Hollywood/Burbank and know my way around this stuff. 

Except reading manuals because you think you know already everything wink

TotalMix FX is optimized for its use, you need to know only a few basics about this device, without that you will have difficulties in operation, the situation that you seem to have now.

Manual Ch 21.1:
- the record signal usually stays un-altered. TotalMix does not reside within the record path, and does not change the record level or the audio data to be recorded (exceptions: EQ for Record and Loopback mode).
- the hardware input signal is can be passed on as often as desired, even with different levels. This is a big difference to conventional mixing desks, where the channel fader always controls the level for all routing destinations simultaneously
- the level meters of input and playback channels are connected pre-fader, to be able to visually monitor where a signal is currently present. The level meters of the hardware outputs are connected post-fader, thus displaying the actual output level.

Lets assume you are using 3-row mode (manual ch 21.2), where the
- "top row"       shows the HW inputs of your recording interface
- "middle row"  shows the SW Playback channels (everything that comes from your PC)
- "bottom row" shows the HW output channels of your recording interface

TotalMix FX supports two different routing modes: Submix mode and free mode (manual ch 21.5.1)

Submix mode

Easiest mode for operation. You need to think output oriented. In this mode you concentrate on a particular output like for phones or monitors and think, what you want to hear there at what level. You create in this mode easily a submix for each of the HW outputs that you select. Hence the name "submix" mode.

Lets assume you want to configure a routing for monitors (AN 1/2 OUT).
1. select the output channel (bottom row, HW Outputs)
2. adjust the fader and pans of first and second row .. finished.

Note: after the selection of a HW output
- the other outputs become dimmed
- the bottom of all faders in the top and middle row show the routing target (HW output "AN1/2")
At this point of operation you only need to watch the level meters of top/middle row where you see an input signal
and then watch the fader positions how much level you send to your current submix, the HW output "AN1/2" (see manual ch 21.3)

Free mode
Is a more advanced mode where you do not alter the routing per submix. It is used to edit several submixes simultaneously, without the need to change between submixes.
Lets assume you want to change the routing for "AN1/2 IN" for several submixes.
1. click to the routing field at the bottom of the channel "AN1/2 IN" in the top row
    a pull down menu appears, active routings are shown with an arrow in front of it
2. click to the hw output to which you want to send this input
   its shown now in boldface
3. raise the input fader to the desired level
   now as you send audio to this output it will be shown with the arrow in the front as active routing

Other tasks to do:
- assign outputs to the control room by using the assign button
  then you can make use of control room features like mute, dim, etc for speakers and phones (ch 21.4)
- save your settings in snapshots (21.5.2)

Snapshots and Workspaces can also be saved to so called workspace quick select slots (30). By this you save routing and positioning on screen.

But I would propose to you to also save snapshots and workspaces as file to the PC, so that you can backup and restore easily (TM FX -> File -> Save {Snapshot,Workspace} As)

Other sources of information:
I put together a TM FX step by step guide for a basic setup, which contains some useful information, also from forum.
If you are interested: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … rnal-equi/

But I think the best would be to get an overview 1st, what can be done with TM FX. For this I can strongly recommend the RME Video Tutorials which are brilliant. Very good structured and to the point without unnecessary extra "bla bla "
I put together a list of tutorials which are available (also the older ones and some in different languages):
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/

Manual: In terms of manual, its an excellent one with many useful informations. I think you should definitively take the time to read chapter 21.

And btw .. there are more "orbs" to be discovered by you. TM FX is a real masterpiece of mixing application.
From ground up very logically and functional designed and heavily optimized (no lag etc).
And there is even TotalMix Remote, which you can install on a remote PC to control the routing...

I hope this makes everything clearer to you, good luck.

Take your time and have fun !

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

3

Re: Big time latency with BF Pro in standalone... SOLVED!!

ericseaberg wrote:

This is the first time I've used the BF Pro as an input source into ProTools, and using the mixer within Totalmix is AWFUL!!!  I'd rather listen through ProTools with its latency and just deal with it... what am I doing wrong?

I've got a mic input feeding ProTools but monitoring through Totalmix... everything routed properly... HELP!!  We can't work this way, even though the docs say we should be able to..

I am confused. ProTools monitoring does not mean big latency as it renders everything in realtime on its DSPs. The latency through the BF Pro when using TotalMix routing is also very low, less than 2 milliseconds - hardware in to out, not through the OS and apps.

You might want to explain why your topic says 'stand-alone' when you use it with driver and TM FX. Bigger latencies usually mean software monitoring, not TM FX hardware monitoring. So a screenshot of your TM FX settings might also help.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Big time latency with BF Pro in standalone... SOLVED!!

ramses wrote:

> using the mixer within Totalmix is AWFUL

Sorry, but so it goes if you do not take the time to read important information about your product in the manual.

I read the manual, just like I have with my $500k Solid State Logic audio console in the studio... and I found the problem.  It's not the BF but the wireless mic system I was trying to use.  It has latency of <=6ms which at 48Kz is about 240 samples... exactly what it sounded like.

It'll be fine, and I do apologize to RME for blaming them.  I was about ready to grab one of our shotgun mics to try it out but discovered this spec buried on their web page.

_____________________
Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
A.E.S. • S.M.P.T.E. • S.P.A.R.S. • I.E.E.E.

5 (edited by ericseaberg 2020-04-30 16:31:12)

Re: Big time latency with BF Pro in standalone... SOLVED!!

MC wrote:

I am confused. ProTools monitoring does not mean big latency as it renders everything in realtime on its DSPs. The latency through the BF Pro when using TotalMix routing is also very low, less than 2 milliseconds - hardware in to out, not through the OS and apps.

You might want to explain why your topic says 'stand-alone' when you use it with driver and TM FX. Bigger latencies usually mean software monitoring, not TM FX hardware monitoring. So a screenshot of your TM FX settings might also help.


ProTools HD (or Ultimate as they call it now) does have buffer settings, typically around 256 samples, but I wasn't monitoring through ProTools.  I was simply using the BF as a mic pre feeding the phone output but I did have TM FX open.  In my reply to ramses, I did mention I discovered the latency is in the wireless mic setup at 6ms, which is about 240 samples at 48Kz.  That's exactly what I was hearing.

_____________________
Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
A.E.S. • S.M.P.T.E. • S.P.A.R.S. • I.E.E.E.