1 Topic by asbefore (edited by asbefore 2020-04-20 05:24:54)

  • Registered: 2020-04-20
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Topic: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

hi friends,

I apologise, I must not be very smart  ---
 
Yesterday I spent close to three hours watching various TotalMix videos on YouTube to understand one basic thing --
how can I use the TotalMix Reverb/Echo effects for outputting to a live stream from my Babyface Pro.

I was trying to figure this out for the longest time - how can I use the sound from my microphone, adding some light processing by way of EQ / Reverb from the TotalMix FX, and send that processed sound to a program, such as OBS (Open Broadcast System) or Zoom (or another software).   I've never used the processing on my Babyface Pro, since I've always been able to work with reverb plugins in my DAW - but OBS and ZOOM don't have this capability, so I have to try to use TotalMix.

I understand what are Hardware Inputs, and Hardware Outputs -- that's logical.
Less logical is "Software Playback" -  I'm not sure what this means and how this applies to my situation.

I feel like in the tutorial videos there's a certain "sleight of hand" magic trick that happens when this is explained.  I get particularly confused when the tutorial starts to mention "unused outputs" like ADAT, and suggests that I use them for routing FX. This could not be more confusing,  could it?

What am I doing wrong?
1 - plug in microphone in to Analogue Input 1.  (Turn on 48k, adjust gain and EQ.)
2 - add reverb in the FX section, and turn it on.   
3 - use the little fader of the Analogue Input to add the wet signal, use the larger fader to send the dry signal.
-- that's it, right?

... Now how can I simply get this to send to the Main Out?
I'm able to hear it in my headphones with reverb, but when I hear a recording of the live stream or Zoom call, the signal I sent turns out to be dry and not processed..  what did I do wrong?

There's a lot of talk in the tutorial videos about "Loopback" which will take the processed sound to some unused channel, but I cannot select those unused channels in Zoom or OBS, they only read the default interface, the default output.

So what should I do? Is it possible to get a processed sound from Totalmix into Zoom or OBS or do I need to use another Mac program like Loopback 2 (by Rogue Amoeba, not to be confused with RME's Loopback feature) to make this work?

I must not be very smart - yet I've figured out hard things in the past. I've written large scores for orchestra, edited and mixed albums, graduated college, started a family, and a few other things along the way... And I've released quite a few albums, too.... but when the tutorials start talking about unused ADAT inputs and virtual Loopback, it just ... doesn't connect.  And reminds me of some horrors we had with ADAT tapes back in the early 90s..

thank you for any advice!

2 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

The audio interface's analog input signal is digitized and reaches the recording software via USB. This signal is usually unprocessed (except for the mic gain). You seem to have the option 'DSP EQ for record' active in the Settings dialog. In that case the EQ in TotalMix FX' input section is inserted into the record path. There is no way to add Reverb/Echo to the record path, which should be obvious, as all FX Return faders are placed on the hardware outputs.

There is a workaround: You can send the hardware output signal (the whole mix/FX signal) to the recording software by engaging Loopback in the 1/2 hardware output channel.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • ramses
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

> Less logical is "Software Playback" -  I'm not sure what this means and how this applies to my situation.

TM FX adds a useful Layer between OS/Applications and the HW outputs, which gives you flexibility for routing audio signals and creating submixes as you need for phones, monitors and alike.

Example:
If you select a HW output in your application, like AN1/2, then the signal is not directly being sent to this output.
Instead of this it will appear as "SW Playback AN 1/2" in the middle row. This is the "additional layer" which I mean.
From there you can send it now to whatever HW output you want / need.
Also with what gain level you want / need for your submix.

Best for routing audio is the so called "Submix Mode", if not enabled already, check in the upper right blue area of TM FX, where you can set a few options for operation.

In submix mode you only need to click to a HW Output (aka submix) in the bottom row and
now YOU can create the submix by simply raising or lowering the faders of
- HW inputs (with near zero latency, signal directly coming from the hardware inputs)
- SW Playback channel (there you have a little latency as the signal comes through the connection of your PC).

In submix mode routing is so extremely easy.
You only need to click to each HW output and can change or validate the routing by simply having a look at the fader positions of HW inputs (top row) or SW Playback Channels (middle row, which is all from computer/application).

The Reset Mixer options give you a possibility to achieve a reset and basic routing from which you can start...

I hope this gives you additional information to make best use out of TM FX.

I put together some information in a blog article, a step by step config guide for a basic routing and some background information. Maybe its useful also for you: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … rnal-equi/

Otherwise pls also check manual and RME tutorial videos, I created a list of all videos that are available:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2020-04-20
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

MC wrote:

You seem to have the option 'DSP EQ for record' active in the Settings dialog.

I do -- that enables the EQ settings to be sent to the recording input, right? And if not selected, then it'll just be for monitoring, yes?

MC wrote:

In that case the EQ in TotalMix FX' input section is inserted into the record path.

OK great.

MC wrote:

There is no way to add Reverb/Echo to the record path, which should be obvious, as all FX Return faders are placed on the hardware outputs.  There is a workaround: You can send the hardware output signal (the whole mix/FX signal) to the recording software by engaging Loopback in the 1/2 hardware output channel.

OK - can you walk me through this?  I get really confused here and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Can you please walk me through this setup step by step?


I have something called "AN1" on the hardware inputs. -- that's the analogue input right?
and then I have "AN1" in the hardware outputs -- that's the analogue out, right? Same abbreviation but different row of faders.
And then I have "AN1" in the Software Playback - that's the software playback, right?

So even though they're all called AN1 by default, nobody should ever be confused because they're in three separate rows of faders. Right? smile

OK.
I have a microphone in AN1 (hardware input). I'd like to add some EQ and Reverb to it, and use those EQ/Reverb settings in another simple program like Zoom or OBS, which doesn't let me select the input channel of my mic -- it only lets me select the interface (Babyface Pro).. I assume it takes only the first channel, whether it's stereo or mono.   How can I add RME processing to this channel before it's sent to the app?   Please be detailed and step-by step. I've already watched the tutorial videos and tried to play with this for three hours.  I still don't understand how it can be done, so I really appreciate -- if you're going to take the time to read and respond to this post -- that you reply step-by-step to my situation.

You say

MB wrote:

You can send the hardware output signal (the whole mix/FX signal) to the recording software by engaging Loopback in the 1/2 hardware output channel.

... That's great -- please explain how.  Step by step, please..

thank you!

  • Registered: 2020-04-20
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

ramses wrote:

Example:
If you select a HW output in your application, like AN1/2, then the signal is not directly being sent to this output.
Instead of this it will appear as "SW Playback AN 1/2" in the middle row. This is the "additional layer" which I mean.
From there you can send it now to whatever HW output you want / need.
Also with what gain level you want / need for your submix.

Thank you - do you mean that each fader of SW Playback is specific to each program that I have open that is using sound? Why then are these SW Playback outputs called AN1/2, PH3/4, AS1/2 and so forth if they're meant to be called "Ableton" "Firefox" "Chrome" and so forth?    Is there a reason that the software outputs are named after hardware outputs?

ramses wrote:

In submix mode you only need to click to a HW Output (aka submix) in the bottom row and
now YOU can create the submix by simply raising or lowering the faders of
- HW inputs (with near zero latency, signal directly coming from the hardware inputs)
- SW Playback channel (there you have a little latency as the signal comes through the connection of your PC).

This suggests to me that I can create an FX setting for HW output AN1/2 and once it's selected, I can then ride the fader on the HW Inputs 1/2...  and that would give me the FX processed sound for the input if I were going into another program like Zoom or Skype or OBS and then my sound would be coming into those programs already processed -- am I right?


ramses wrote:

In submix mode routing is so extremely easy.

Maybe!  But I wouldn't call spending now four hours trying to understand the brilliance of this system as being "extremely easy".

ramses wrote:

I put together some information in a blog article, a step by step config guide for a basic routing and some background information. Maybe its useful also for you.. Otherwise pls also check manual and RME tutorial videos, I created a list of all videos that are available..

Thank you. (The forum software asked me to remove the links.)

Yes I've checked out many of the videos but couldn't find the manual. I feel that some of the brilliance of the TotalMixFX design is lost in the translation from German to English, and perhaps it could be improved.

For me -- it's super confusing to have AN1  stand for an input, an output, and a software playback.
Couldn't we call it AI1 (Analogue Input 1), AO1 (analogue output 1) and SP1 (software playback 1)?
Wouldn't it save so much paper just calling those things different names?

What is AS1/2? What does the S stand for?

Also PH3/4 - that's headphones, right? On the Babyface Pro there are two headphone jacks but they're both linked to the same knob/output, you can't (unfortunately) control individual volume for each headphone jack. So it's just one stereo phones.    Why can't we just call it "Headphones"?

I'm confused by the "Assign" button in the FX chain... do I need to click "Assign" and select "Main Out PH3/4" if I"m working in headphones?

Maybe all of these things make a lot of sense to an engineer working on a much bigger rig that's somehow being processed by a Babyface Pro via ADAT..... but for all of us little people who are trying to do simple things with a 2-channel interface, I would say this could be simplified and more effectively named/translated..

either way -- thank you so much for helping me here..

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-04-21 09:16:14)

  • ramses
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

> do you mean that each fader of SW Playback is specific to each program that I have open that is using sound?
No Audio simply appears there, where you send it in your application.
If you use AN1/2 for an audio player, then the signal appears in SW Playback channels.
And then you have the flexibility to do the final routing.
Maybe you want to hear this audio not only on speakers but also on phones.
This is where the flexibility of TM FX kicks in, because it makes it possible to perform the final routing in TM FX.

> Why then are these SW Playback outputs called AN1/2, PH3/4, AS1/2 and so forth if they're meant to be
> called "Ableton" "Firefox" "Chrome" and so forth?
The application loads an audio driver and knows which outputs are available to send audio to.
You know you connected speakers to AN1/2, so you choose in the application AN1/2.
You see now the signal arriving in TM FX in the middle row (if you kept 3-row display) on SW Playback AN 1/2.
Now you have the flexibility in TM FX to route this signal coming from an application not only to HW output AN 1/2.
But maybe also to phones, because you want it this way.

> Is there a reason that the software outputs are named after hardware outputs?

If you look at TotalMix FX you have as many SW playback channels as you hav HW outputs.
And it makes sense, as the application only knows from the driver which outputs are available.
So .. the layer in between uses the same names .. quite logic.

> This suggests to me that I can create an FX setting for HW output AN1/2 and once it's selected,
> I can then ride the fader on the HW Inputs 1/2...  and that would give me the FX processed sound
> for the input if I were going into another program like Zoom or Skype or OBS and then my sound
> would be coming into those programs already processed -- am I right?

No .. its different. In TM FX you route audio from HW inputs and SW playback channels to HW outputs (aka submixes, hence the name submix mode).
If you want to record something that you send to an output what would you need to do normally ?
A real patch cable from the plug HW Output AN1/2 to an input HW Input AN1/2.
To save you the hassles with an external patch cable you have the possibility to use Loopback.
You click to the "wrench" symbol at the HW Output, then you see the Loopback button.
If you click to the loopback button of HW output AN1/2 (where you have the signal with effects) then audio is internally being routed digitally to the corresponding HW input AN1/2. This HW input you can record in the application.

> Maybe!  But I wouldn't call spending now four hours trying to understand the brilliance of this system as
> being "extremely easy".

Maybe I forgot to say "once you understood the basic principle", then it is very easy. But if you are honest, routing in TM FX submix mode is easy, one sentence in one line:
"click to an HW output, turn the faders of HW inputs and SW playback channels as needed to get your submix".

> Yes I've checked out many of the videos but couldn't find the manual.
Manuals you do not find in videos. Look to the RME product page on their webserver, there you find the download links for manuals and drivers. For older products like Babyface you need to consult the archive site: https://archiv.rme-audio.de.

> For me -- it's super confusing to have AN1  stand for an input, an output, and a software playback.
Then please read the manual then you will see that you can even turn off TotalMix FX features by entering the operational mode "Digital Audio Workstation Mode".

> What is AS1/2? What does the S stand for?
You can easily get this information by reading the manual, see chapter 9.8 under SPDIF
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/bface_pro_fs_e.pdf


> Also PH3/4 - that's headphones, right? On the Babyface Pro there are two headphone jacks but they're both
> linked to the same knob/output, you can't (unfortunately) control individual volume for each headphone jack.
> So it's just one stereo phones.    Why can't we just call it "Headphones"?

Come on this you could guess yourself. Its a naming convention that has been chosen to get short names,
otherwise its not possible to get small mixer channels. Nobody has a 4m broad monitor so that such long names
would fit as channel description.

> I'm confused by the "Assign" button in the FX chain... do I need to click "Assign" and select
> "Main Out PH3/4" if I"m working in headphones?

The assign button brings the channels that you want into the TM FX control room.
By this control room functions like DIM, Recall, Mute FX are available for the outputs.
See manual chapter 21.4

> Maybe all of these things make a lot of sense to an engineer working on a much bigger rig that's
> somehow being processed by a Babyface Pro via ADAT..... but for all of us little people who are trying
> to do simple things with a 2-channel interface, I would say this could be simplified and more effectively named/translated..

I think they simply underestimated the issue and are not using the appropriate method.

My urgent recommendation to you is

1. take a deep breath, take some time and do not put yourself under too much pressure

2. have a look at all current video tutorials, because they will give you a compact and concise overview of the essential operating functions and features of TotalMix FX in no time.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/

3. after that, please have a look at my step-by-step TM FX primer, which will guide you step by step through various functions.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … rnal-equi/

4. then take a look at the manual. It is structured very logically and as soon as you are familiar with the terms you will find important information within a short time by using the search function of a PDF viewer.
Old Babyface:
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/bface_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/bface_e.pdf
Babyface Pro:
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/bface_pro_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/bface_pro_e.pdf
Latest Babyface Pro FS:
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/bface_pro_fs_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/bface_pro_fs_e.pdf

It is just the way it is, nothing is as simple as it seems, ever operated a washing machine when the woman is on holiday ? Nothing discoloured ? Nothing shrunk wink

Don't desperate, RME and the forum will help you .. but pls work on your expectations (rome also has not been build in a few days ...) and methodolody see 1) - 4) .. many thanks for your patience and cooperation.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-04-21 09:40:40)

  • ramses
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

A little example for you to maybe get a better idea why TM submix mode  and the SW playback channels are great.

We all have different types of audio coming from our PC
1. Operating System (OS) Messages
2. Audio from Music Player, i.e. for background music
3. Audio for Video conferences

What you can e.g. do ... Configure
a) OS to send system messages to AN 1/2 -> audio will appear on SW playback AN 1/2
b) Music Player to send audio      to AN 3/4 -> audio will appear on SW playback AN 3/4
c) Conference SW to send audio  to AS 1/2 -> audio will appear on SW playback AS 1/2

Now get your phones output (HW output AN 3/4) into the control room to be "Phones 1", so that you can use control room functions for your phones output.
Careful with volume levels, turn the volume down of this particular HW output for phones to approx -30dB not to hurt your ears.

And NOW .. comes the magic. Ensure TM FX is set to submix mode (upper right in the blue field).

1. Click on HW Ouput "Phones 1" in the control room.
2. Now you can raise the fader of SW Playback channels in the middle row, to create a "submix" of the three stereo signals
    (OS signals, Audio Player, Conference Software)
This way you can have e.g. background music during phone conferences at smaller level, OS messages you might want to turn down or not .. mix it AS YOU LIKE.

This routing / submix you can finally digitally save to one of the 8 snapshot places on the right side of TM FX so that you can recall this routing whenever you need it.

And for another HW Output where your speakers are connected to, you can arrange it in the same way.
Maybe you want to mute Speakers when Phones are in use and vice versa ...
At the end you will have 2 saved routings / submixes which you can recall easily at any time.

I hope this motivates you further to dive in into the wonderful world of TM FX. Enjoy !

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2020-04-20
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

Hallo Ramses,

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions in such detail and with great patience.

I read through your tutorial and also the manual, and though I still did not initially understand at the end how to do what I wanted to do (to use RME's onboard reverb for Input 1), after some guess work, I was able to set it up into something that I can verify works:

https://i.imgur.com/bobE7O9.jpg

I verified this setup works for giving reverb to HW Input 1 (AN1) by going in to Zoom and recording a short test call, then playing a recording of that call on my phone.

If you asked me WHY this works, I cannot tell you -- it's pure guess work.
I enabled "Loopback" on both the PH3/4 and the AN1/2 outputs. Somehow this made it work. I'm not sure why -- but it works.

Ramses, two notes -- your tutorial, as far as I can tell, only talks about Windows setup. You mention in there a lot of "right click" functionality which doesn't work on a Mac (not even with command-click, option-click, shift-click and so on).

Also, you keep mentioning that everything is "simple".. there are at least 12 mentions of "simple" or "simply" in your tutorial -- this may be a translation thing, but there is no reason to mention that anything is "simple" ... this is like joking or mocking the user who came to your tutorial, clearly looking for information they couldn't understand in the manual.

Another confusion came from your tutorial where you say TotalMix is a "monitor mixer" - this may be, but if the effects are also able to be put through to the input, and you can record the processed FX into the input channel - then this is not merely a monitor mixer, as you're not only hearing the effect but also recording it...

"Loopback" needs to be better explained. When you press "Loopback", what are you looping back to - the hardware input or the software playback?


At any rate I'm glad to have arrived at least this far and to be able to record processed audio in a Zoom call setting. that's powerful.

Thank you for your help so far.

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-04-22 07:51:19)

  • ramses
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

> I enabled "Loopback" on both the PH3/4 and the AN1/2 outputs.
> Somehow this made it work. I'm not sure why -- but it works.

With Loopback you plug a virtual cable between an output and its corresponding input.
By this you can record the "wet" output signal AN1/2 OUT with effects on its corresponding input AN 1/2 IN.

> Ramses, two notes -- your tutorial, as far as I can tell, only talks about Windows setup. You mention in there a lot of
> "right click" functionality which doesn't work on a Mac (not even with command-click, option-click, shift-click and so on).

PCs have two and three button mouse since ages. Using google I found this in regards to Apple. I would assume that Apple user know their "beast" wink Please check, maybe I will add it as a side note.

"One way to right click on a Mac is to press the Ctrl (or Control) key when you tap the mouse button, or the trackpad. Don't confuse the Ctrl key with the Alt (or Option) key. The Ctrl key on a Mac is not the one next to the space bar, it's at the far end of the keyboard, on either the right or left side."

BTW, good that you mentioned it, when searching for "click" in the german text and the english translation I found an error most likely caused by the translation program which I am using for translating long texts, as it saves time and in some cases it translates better than me. However, where there is light, there is also darkness.

There was a case where I wanted that somebody clicks to a button which is on the right side of TM FX application and this has also been translated to a "right click" which was wrong. So thanks for your feedback.

> Also, you keep mentioning that everything is "simple" [...]

Yes because it is. The only problem is, that people don't take the time to have a look at the manual and don't take their time to learn how to use the software. They approach it with a completely wrong expectation and think it's enough to just wiggle the faders a little bit like on an analog hardware mixer.
In fact TM FX is optimized for the purpose of being a "monitor mixer" on the PC. Not only do you have 2, 4 or 8 submixes like on a hardware mixer, where you simply have some hardware limitations. With TotalMix FX you have as many submixes as you have hardware outputs. And as there are RME interfaces with 198 output channels (MADIface XT) ...

All you need to know first is that in submix mode "you click on an output and then you can see at a glance which input signals (top row) and which signals are coming from the PC/application (middle row)." You just have to think from the outputs when routing.
Once you understand this, routing in TM FX is simple and logical.

I have had quite different experiences with other manufacturers. After approx two years I still didn't understand their software mixer on PC, because the operation was not so logically consistent and the manual left a lot to be desired. It was always a struggle and search when you wanted to implement something special where you needed to route audio.

That's the reason why I can only state that TM FX is simple, because its my personal impression after seeing a lot of different software and also audio products.

The other side of the coin is that people naturally find very simple software easier to use. The problem is then usually that it can't do much either. In the long run, I think that's the greater evil.

> there is no reason to mention that anything is "simple" ... this is like joking or mocking the user
> who came to your tutorial, clearly looking for information they couldn't understand in the manual.

No this is not the intention and you are the first mentioning it. As I said in chapter "First steps": "The operation of TM FX is actually very simple, you only have to understand a few basic things of the operating concept at the beginning."

If you want I can review this and focus this only on selected fewer places if you think this makes everybody happier.
Up to now nobody complained and at the end of the day this is "cosmetic", most important is that you get the job done to get a good 1st time setup done and I think this everybody got managed by this so far.

> Another confusion came from your tutorial where you say TotalMix is a "monitor mixer"

I am using this term because I think that this is the best term to describe, why TM FX is a little bit different, when it comes to daily operation and routing compared to other products. I told you already, that TM FX is a highly optimized product.
In submix mode everything focuses on the HW outputs also referred to as the being the "submixes".
Remember .. every HW output is a "submix".
And how do you operate it in submix mode ?
You click to a HW output aka "submix" and then turn the fader to get exactly the submix that you want to hear on phones and speakers. Also the routing works output oriented.

Do you know a better name to describe the product and its own operation and to distinguish it clearly from other products, which are not so much optimized for this kind of application ? Even RME uses this term on the product page and on the forum.

> "Loopback" needs to be better explained. When you press "Loopback", what are you looping back to
> - the hardware input or the software playback?

Handbook ch 23.6 has the answer for you (if you search for "loopback" then you stumble across that already in the table of contents and later in the text):

23.6 Recording a Submix - Loopback
TotalMix includes an internal loopback function, from the Hardware Outputs to the recording software.
Instead of the signal at the hardware input, the signal at the hardware output is sent to the record software.
This way, submixes can be recorded without an external loopback cable.
Also the playback from a software can be recorded by another software.

The function is activated by the Loopback button in the Settings panel of the Hardware Outputs.
In loopback mode, the signal at the hardware input of the corresponding channel is no longer sent to the recording software, but still passed through to TotalMix.
Therefore TotalMix can be used to route this input signal to any hardware output.
Using the subgroup recording, the input can still be recorded on a different channel.

As each of the 6 stereo hardware outputs can be routed to the record software, and none of these hardware inputs get lost, TotalMix offers an overall flexibility and performance not rivalled by any other solution.

The risk of feedbacks, a basic problem of loopback methods, is low, because the feedback can not happen within the mixer, only when the audio software is switched into monitoring mode. [...]

> At any rate I'm glad to have arrived at least this far and to be able to record processed audio in a Zoom call setting.
> that's powerful.

Thats nice to hear. I wish you fun discovering a lot of nice functionality and don't remember, Rome also has not been built in a few days wink

> Thank you for your help so far.

You're welcome and thanks for your feedback.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2020-04-20
  • Posts: 17

Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

ramses wrote:

> I enabled "Loopback" on both the PH3/4 and the AN1/2 outputs.
> Somehow this made it work. I'm not sure why -- but it works.

With Loopback you plug a virtual cable between an output and its corresponding input.
By this you can record the "wet" output signal AN1/2 OUT with effects on its corresponding input AN 1/2 IN.

Sorry for the delay in responding to this thread, Ramses!
I understand your explanation here, though I confess what makes it very challenging is that all of the routing is invisible.
When I'm dealing with typical DAW-style setup, I can see channel inserts, sends, and create bus tracks. All of those things are familiar and I can see on any track where the send is, what the output is, and so forth..  in RME the routing is invisible. You have to use the little fader which is the send but on the output it's the return but it's not marked which is routed to which.  You have to keep a mental map - right?



ramses wrote:

> Ramses, two notes -- your tutorial, as far as I can tell, only talks about Windows setup. You mention in there a lot of
> "right click" functionality which doesn't work on a Mac (not even with command-click, option-click, shift-click and so on).

PCs have two and three button mouse since ages. Using google I found this in regards to Apple. I would assume that Apple user know their "beast" wink Please check, maybe I will add it as a side note.

"One way to right click on a Mac is to press the Ctrl (or Control) key when you tap the mouse button, or the trackpad. Don't confuse the Ctrl key with the Alt (or Option) key. The Ctrl key on a Mac is not the one next to the space bar, it's at the far end of the keyboard, on either the right or left side."

Right - but as I said above, that functionality with the Control or Option clicking does not work in TMFX on the Mac. None of it - not sure why.

ramses wrote:

In fact TM FX is optimized for the purpose of being a "monitor mixer" on the PC. Not only do you have 2, 4 or 8 submixes like on a hardware mixer, where you simply have some hardware limitations. With TotalMix FX you have as many submixes as you have hardware outputs. And as there are RME interfaces with 198 output channels (MADIface XT) ...

I'm confused here again -- you list the submix limitations as an advantage over traditional hardware mixers, but yet on RME it's also limited to the number of hardware outputs.... so how is this different really?

ramses wrote:

> there is no reason to mention that anything is "simple" ... this is like joking or mocking the user
> who came to your tutorial, clearly looking for information they couldn't understand in the manual.

No this is not the intention and you are the first mentioning it. As I said in chapter "First steps": "The operation of TM FX is actually very simple, you only have to understand a few basic things of the operating concept at the beginning."

If you want I can review this and focus this only on selected fewer places if you think this makes everybody happier.
Up to now nobody complained and at the end of the day this is "cosmetic", most important is that you get the job done to get a good 1st time setup done and I think this everybody got managed by this so far.

You know... it's kind of like... "riding a unicycle is really easy! You just have to fall on your face for two weeks.. but it's easy! Easy Easy Easy!"  or... "Playing the violin is really easy!! See this video - this kid is really amazing! See how easy it looks?" ... and so forth.   Everything is really easy when you spend the time figuring it out. 

ramses wrote:

> Another confusion came from your tutorial where you say TotalMix is a "monitor mixer"

I am using this term because I think that this is the best term to describe, why TM FX is a little bit different, when it comes to daily operation and routing compared to other products. I told you already, that TM FX is a highly optimized product.
In submix mode everything focuses on the HW outputs also referred to as the being the "submixes".
Remember .. every HW output is a "submix".
And how do you operate it in submix mode ?
You click to a HW output aka "submix" and then turn the fader to get exactly the submix that you want to hear on phones and speakers. Also the routing works output oriented.

Do you know a better name to describe the product and its own operation and to distinguish it clearly from other products, which are not so much optimized for this kind of application ? Even RME uses this term on the product page and on the forum.

I would just say TM FX is the software companion to RME's hardware interface, which lets you control all of the things in the interface that you can't really do with the two buttons and one knob on the interface....    It also lets you use the onboard EQ and two FX (Reverb & Echo) that are on the device itself (though FX require computer power to process, right?)

ramses wrote:

23.6 Recording a Submix - Loopback
TotalMix includes an internal loopback function, from the Hardware Outputs to the recording software.
Instead of the signal at the hardware input, the signal at the hardware output is sent to the record software.
This way, submixes can be recorded without an external loopback cable.
Also the playback from a software can be recorded by another software.

The function is activated by the Loopback button in the Settings panel of the Hardware Outputs.
In loopback mode, the signal at the hardware input of the corresponding channel is no longer sent to the recording software, but still passed through to TotalMix.
Therefore TotalMix can be used to route this input signal to any hardware output.
Using the subgroup recording, the input can still be recorded on a different channel.

Yes but this is very dense and not specific -- the cabling is invisible and when you press "Loopback" it doesn't specify visually where it's being looped back to, or how to control it.

Not to get confused too much but look at the routing for the Loopback (by Rogue Amoeba) is organised:
https://weblog.rogueamoeba.com/wp-conte … ion@2x.png

You can see cables. you can see what things are called. You don't have to think of what AN1 stands for, or that the ADAT channels are actually being used by a program that's not called ADAT and so forth. It's so much simpler and cleaner... you can SEE the routing and change it just by dragging the virtual cables around.

ramses wrote:

As each of the 6 stereo hardware outputs can be routed to the record software, and none of these hardware inputs get lost, TotalMix offers an overall flexibility and performance not rivalled by any other solution.

....
....Except of course any other virtual cabling solution like Loopback (by Rogue Amoeba) or Virtual Cable, that is not limited by the number of hardware outputs like TM FX. 

ramses wrote:

The risk of feedbacks, a basic problem of loopback methods, is low, because the feedback can not happen within the mixer, only when the audio software is switched into monitoring mode. [...]

Feedback happens when people do their routing wrong... it's easier to get it wrong when you can't see the cabling..


At any rate, thank you!
I'm still baffled that my solution for getting RME's reverb to work actually functions.. i'm not sure why I had to enable Loopback on two channels to make it work (see screenshot above), but I'm glad it works.  smile

11 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

asbefore wrote:

When I'm dealing with typical DAW-style setup, I can see channel inserts, sends, and create bus tracks. All of those things are familiar and I can see on any track where the send is, what the output is, and so forth..  in RME the routing is invisible.

Of course. Your typical DAW-style setup would need 3 meter wide monitors to show all the routings TM FX can do. It is unavoidable to hide some stuff. Regarding the routing: the Matrix view will show all routings on one single window.

asbefore wrote:

You have to use the little fader which is the send but on the output it's the return

We call this both logically and intuitive. And it's the same on hardware mixing desks.

asbefore wrote:

but it's not marked which is routed to which.  You have to keep a mental map - right?

Routed to which? I don't understand. The labelling is there where it belongs: Open the channel settings (the wrench symbol), there is your labelled pot  'FX Return'. Moving it you will notice the green slider will move as well. Isn't it a useful feature to show the current amount of FX return all the time? And wouldn't you and anyone else complain if the  little green slider would be just a state graphics and can't also be moved with the mouse? And isn't it true that there is not enough space to label everything everywhere?

asbefore wrote:

Right - but as I said above, that functionality with the Control or Option clicking does not work in TMFX on the Mac. None of it - not sure why.

Must be a setting on your Mac. Right mouse click works for me and  - most probably - anyone else as we have never got complains about it not working.

asbefore wrote:

Another confusion came from your tutorial where you say TotalMix is a "monitor mixer"

RME says it is a monitor mixer, since its birth in 2001. Usually TM FX is not part of the record path. Being able to record FX on the input channels and Loopback were added much later as options.

asbefore wrote:

Yes but this is very dense and not specific -- the cabling is invisible and when you press "Loopback" it doesn't specify visually where it's being looped back to, or how to control it.

Correct. There are some features that are seldomly used that were excluded to not clutter the GUI. As Loopback is limited to loop on its own channel (which is logical, otherwise the button must have a routing destination submenu) this does not seem like a big issue.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

12 Reply by asbefore (edited by asbefore 2020-04-30 17:07:52)

  • Registered: 2020-04-20
  • Posts: 17

Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

MC wrote:
asbefore wrote:

When I'm dealing with typical DAW-style setup, I can see channel inserts, sends, and create bus tracks. All of those things are familiar and I can see on any track where the send is, what the output is, and so forth..  in RME the routing is invisible.

Of course. Your typical DAW-style setup would need 3 meter wide monitors to show all the routings TM FX can do. It is unavoidable to hide some stuff. Regarding the routing: the Matrix view will show all routings on one single window.

It's funny how you say "it's unavoidable to hide some stuff" but yet "the Matrix view will show oall the routings in one single window"... ...   also how you say that I'd need 3-meter wide monitors, yet other programmes work just fine on a laptop and show all routings...  I find all of these statements vastly contradictory, but maybe you do not..

MC wrote:
asbefore wrote:

You have to use the little fader which is the send but on the output it's the return

We call this both logically and intuitive. And it's the same on hardware mixing desks.

Maybe it's different in German, but "logical" and "intuitive" are marketing terms for things that are easy. They're not technical terms. 

On a hardware desk, yes, you ride faders -- but you also have tape with which you can label channels, and you can see the routing cables in the routing to see what is being plugged in to what.   


MC wrote:

The labelling is there where it belongs: Open the channel settings (the wrench symbol), there is your labelled pot  'FX Return'. Moving it you will notice the green slider will move as well. Isn't it a useful feature to show the current amount of FX return all the time?  And wouldn't you and anyone else complain if the  little green slider would be just a state graphics and can't also be moved with the mouse? And isn't it true that there is not enough space to label everything everywhere?

You bring up an excellent point - why is there both a little green fader AND an FX Return knob which do the same thing and take up so much space in TMFX?   What's so useful for having both a fader and a knob tied to the same feature on the same channel?


MC wrote:
asbefore wrote:

Right - but as I said above, that functionality with the Control or Option clicking does not work in TMFX on the Mac. None of it - not sure why.

Must be a setting on your Mac. Right mouse click works for me and  - most probably - anyone else as we have never got complains about it not working.

No, it really doesn't work. I'm on a MacBookPro running OS 10.14.6 (Mojave), using the trackpad on the laptop (not an external mouse).  On a Mac we only have one mouse button and use the "control" function as a modifier to activate contextual menus typically accessed by the right click.   I'm able to access contextual menus (right-click functions) in every programme on my computer except TMFX, by using control+click.    Have you tested this with a Mac laptop?



MC wrote:

RME says it is a monitor mixer, since its birth in 2001. Usually TM FX is not part of the record path. Being able to record FX on the input channels and Loopback were added much later as options.

OK so can we update the marketing terminology and not use "monitor mixer" as part of the lexicon since 19 years have passed since 2001?....



MC wrote:
asbefore wrote:

Yes but this is very dense and not specific -- the cabling is invisible and when you press "Loopback" it doesn't specify visually where it's being looped back to, or how to control it.

Correct. There are some features that are seldomly used that were excluded to not clutter the GUI. As Loopback is limited to loop on its own channel (which is logical, otherwise the button must have a routing destination submenu) this does not seem like a big issue.

What do you mean "limited to loop on its own channel" and what do you mean "not a big issue" -- do you see how long this page is?


Thank you for reading this, MC.  I know that RME makes wonderful sounding products, but the software interface -- however "logical" and "intuitive" it seems to you or people who've been with the evolution since 2001 -- is not that clear, and worse yet the translation from German to English may be making it worse.

Do you know the musical instrument Bandoneon?  It was invented in Germany, as you probably know, but popularised in Argentina. The organisation of notes makes very little logical sense from the outset, but people who practise it daily for a number of years are able to overcome its difficulties and make beautiful music.  RME's software is kind-of like bandoneon. It looks easy and natural -- if you practise.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmguo5Fywuo

Hopefully by updating the manual and some of the translation you can make beginners feel more welcome.

Again, thank you!

  • ramses
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

It's documented in the manual.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

14 Reply by asbefore (edited by asbefore 2020-04-30 17:58:22)

  • Registered: 2020-04-20
  • Posts: 17

Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

What about the Matrix function, where can I learn more about it?

ramses wrote:

It's documented in the manual.

You know, it kind-of is.
Here is a screenshot of the Babyface Pro manual where it talks about the Matrix -- I had to take a screenshot because it's on two pages:
https://i.imgur.com/GFRrt7d.jpg

Here we learn some new terminology.  On the "Mixer" view, we have Hardware Inputs named AN1/2,  Inst 3/4, A/S12, ADAT3/4 and so forth.  And we also have Hardware Outputs with the exact same names -- no confusion there whatsoever, it's perfectly logical.

But then we get to the "Matrix" view and we have things called "Out 1, Out 2, Out 3, Out 4, Out 5, Out 6, Out 7, Out 8, Out 9, Out 10, Out 11, Out 12, FX L, FX R".  Completely different names for the outputs than on the Mixer page.  Extremely logical, right?   How could anyone be confused?

Also as you see in this image, the manual only talks about hardware inputs and hardware outputs.... but my Babyface Pro Matrix view looks quite different!   Since RME's forum won't let me post more images in the same post, I'll have to post separately, standby...

  • Registered: 2020-04-20
  • Posts: 17

Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

... continuing the previous post, here is my "Matrix" view:
https://i.imgur.com/SJ6jMSw.jpg
As you can see, it has a lot more things on it than the Babyface manual I linked above.
I can see now that at the very bottom the Hardware outputs are called by their Mixer names (AN1/2, ADAT, etc.) but somehow on the top of the page they're also known as "Out 1, Out 2" etc.   It is so logical, it's not even mentioned in the manual about the "Matrix" view...

But how does "Matrix" mode help me visualise where the Loopback mode is activated? Manual doesn't mention it... Matrix Mode doesn't seem to have any noticeable differences when I activate Loopback... why can't I have both "Matrix" and "Mixer" modes on display at the same time so I can see what changes they're making?

thank you!...

16 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-04-30 18:27:07)

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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

> But how does "Matrix" mode help me visualise where the Loopback mode is activated?

It's also in the manual. You only need to read it...

"[...]Matrix and TotalMix are different ways of displaying the same processes. Because of this both views are always fully synchronized. Each change in one view is immediately reflected in the other view as well.[...]"

"[...]The Matrix not always replaces the mixer view, but it significantly enhances the routing capabilities
and - more important - is a brilliant way to get a fast overview of all active routings. ...[...]"

The Matrix view is simply another representation of routing to make certain operational tasks quicker possible compared to mixer view, no matter whether you would use "submix" or "free" routing mode.

In other words, matrix is a specialized mode for certain special aims .. if you need to check for loopback, you do such tasks in mixer view.

But .. tbh, isn't this clear ? I don't get it what problems you have with it.

Take your time reading the manual, sometimes it helps to read things twice and to "play" a little with the new toys ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2020-04-20
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

I did read it!  None of that makes any sense. That's not technical information, that is marketing language. It's not helpful.
None of that text means anything (in English, anyway).

Let's pull apart what you quoted:
"[...]Matrix and TotalMix are different ways of displaying the same processes. Because of this both views are always fully synchronized. Each change in one view is immediately reflected in the other view as well.[...]"

This says they are different ways to look at the same thing and that changes are reflected -- but how? that would be useful to show!

"[...]The Matrix not always replaces the mixer view, but it significantly enhances the routing capabilities
and - more important - is a brilliant way to get a fast overview of all active routings. ...[...]"

"not always" is what we call in English a "double negative".   You can say "not easy" to mean "difficult" or you can say "not difficult" to mean "easy".   "Not always" means that sometimes there are exceptions. Essentially, "Not always" means "Sometimes".

So let's try again ... Sometimes the Matrix replaces the Mixer View, but it significantly enhances the routing capabilities and - more important -- is a brilliant way to get a fast overview of all active routings.

OK now this sentence makes no sense at all. Sometimes it replaces the mixer view -- but what about other times?   And what makes it "Brilliant"? "Brilliant" is a marketing language adjective, it has no place in a technical manual, it is not helpful.

I think what it's trying to say is that Sometimes it's helpful to look at the connections in Matrix view, where you can see all the ins and outs on one page...   but it's the same information as the Mixer view, just presented differently...

still the presentation is confused more by the introduction of "Out 1, Out 2..." ... and I don't see how loopback function is reflected in Matrix.

Why don't you guys call outputs "Out 1, Out 2" on the Mixer page? That would make things cleaner!

I hope some of my translation help is useful....

18 Reply by MC

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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

> why can't I have both "Matrix" and "Mixer" modes on display at the same time so I can see what changes they're making?

Is it really so hard to find the function 'New TotalMix Window' in the menu? Hotkey Crtrl-N/Command+N.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

19 Reply by asbefore (edited by asbefore 2020-05-01 14:11:59)

  • Registered: 2020-04-20
  • Posts: 17

Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

MC wrote:

> why can't I have both "Matrix" and "Mixer" modes on display at the same time so I can see what changes they're making?

Is it really so hard to find the function 'New TotalMix Window' in the menu? Hotkey Crtrl-N/Command+N.

That's a really great line for the manual, too, please use "Is it really so hard" for any beginning of a chapter when you update the manual. Great choice.  Very helpful. Thank you!   Let's rename the forum to "Is it really so hard to read the manual?"

I have written in this post at length and have tried to be constructive about the grammatical errors in the manual, as well as its incessant boasting of simplicity, logic and brilliance.  I've shown where the user interface is lacking in clarity, and where some features do not work on a Mac as you'd think they would.     

Clearly what I'm saying is not being heard.  RME staff think that they are logical and brilliant and after 21 years there's simply nothing they need to learn about the user experience or interface design or the English language.

That's fine -- I think the logical and simple thing will be for me to stop writing.

Viel spass!

P.S. One more thing -- MC aside, there are other people in these forums who are more helpful and constructive.  I thank them again.

  • From: Portland, Oregon USA
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Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

People are trying to help you.  Be nice. People are not obligated to try and help you. MC 's responses are to the point. You're new to this software and you're telling him how the software should be written without understanding it yourself. TMFX is amazing and it is constantly getting better. The developers listen. Just search this forum, look on youtube and be patient and courteous.

  • Registered: 2021-08-05
  • Posts: 1

Re: using TotalMix FX with live streaming in OBS/Zoom (Babyface, Mac)

I am going to attempt a live stream mix of a jazz quartet using TM next week. This thread has been very helpful. Danke!