1 Topic by VredalertV (edited by VredalertV 2020-07-05 06:29:56)

  • Registered: 2019-08-10
  • Posts: 9

Topic: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

I got a new MSI GS75 powerful notebook (usually marketed for gamers) that has thunderbolt that supports power delivery to replace a previous year model MSI GS75 that also had thunderbolt without PD.  The previous one worked fine.

Now when I boot with the UFX+ connected, it freezes the computer a second or two after login as if some startup/service program is triggering the freeze.

If I wait until all the applications start and plug it in later, it actually works and does not freeze the system!  So it definitely is happening when running some startup app/service.

I tried to disable all the startup apps except Totalmix with no success.

Any ideas?  I have all the latest and greatest drivers, firmwares and Windows Updates as of 4th of July 2020

Very frustrated!

Thanks,

-V

UPDATE I disabled all startup items and even disabled the Thunderbolt service and it still has the issue.

Again when I boot and then turn on the UFX it works, but it does freeze after about an hour of use.

2 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,576

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

Windows 2004 is known to have problems with Thunderbolt. Your notebook is new and you might have to wait for further Thunderbolt firmware and driver updates to work. You didn't disclose how you connect the UFX+ to the MSI - directly is not possible.

Until then simply use USB 3.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2019-08-10
  • Posts: 9

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

Matthias, thanks for the quick response!

UFX+ -> Apple Thunderbolt 2M cable -> Apple Thunderbolt 2 to 3 (USB-C) convertor -> MSI Thunderbolt USB-C Port.

I just tried a spare SSD with clean Windows 1909 (not 2004), and it boots fine with no drivers installed.  Only thing connected is the RME UFX+ and it shows up in TB Windows App no problems.  However, once I install the RME TB drivers and reboot, it freezes again.

So it definitely is either 1) Thunderbolt Firmware 2) TB Drivers or even perhaps 3) RME Drivers; I hope it is not the new notebook hardware itself?  We have now ruled out Windows 2004 being the issue....

Again on the clean install, if I wait a few seconds after boot then plug it in later it works temporarily but then freezes again after 15 mins - 1 hour.

I tried my Caldigit TB dock and it works perfectly (of course without the UFX+ plugged into it). When I plug the UFX+ into the Caldigit, it does the same thing and freezes on boot.

Another question on USB 3 - I cannot find a cable in the USA nor the original one in the box, I ordered a LINDY from UK but do you know of one available in USA quicker?

  • Registered: 2019-08-10
  • Posts: 9

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

Update - I tried changing the Apple TB 2 to 3 USB-C to a Startech.  Same issues, so that is not the culprit.

I really need to determine if this is drivers or faulty hardware so I can exchange the notebook within 30 days if necessary.

Also I cannot find a USB A 3.0 cable in USA, they all are 2.0 and marketed for printers.  I tried all my USB A cables (even the one from my Babyface Pro FS) and couldnt get a USB 3 connection, therefore in USB 2 I am unable to access my MADI devices from my DAWs.

5 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,576

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

That looks like a problem of the notebook, especially as it freezes again after some time, and also because no one else has reported such behaviour with TB.

BTW, the TB software/dialog includes a possibility to always allow the UFX+, and this and UEFI-BIOS allow to disable all kinds of TB security features. Try it, maybe it helps.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

6 Reply by VredalertV (edited by VredalertV 2020-07-07 08:17:34)

  • Registered: 2019-08-10
  • Posts: 9

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

Ok, some updates as I compared my old 2019 GS75 to the new 2020 GS75:

The new one never asks to approve the device!  And there are no options to do so... It says always no approved devices but they are ATTACHED.

I opened up the ABOUT section in TB Control Center and found some differences:

NEW 2020 GS75
TB3 15E8
NVM FIRMWARE V50.0 (edited)
Security Level: Kernel DMA Protection
Driver 1.41.789.0 on OEM SSD, and I tried 1.41.823.0, 1.41.890.0 with same issues

OLD 2019 GS75
TB3 15D9
NVM FIRMWARE V40.0 (edited)
Security Level: User Authentication SL1
Driver 1.41.823.0 and 1.41.789.0 confirmed working

There are no BIOS options about TB security features at all.

I tried my TB Hard Drive and TB Caldigit Hub on the old and new one without any issues, so the only problem TB device is the UFX+ on the 2020 TB3

And the UFX+ only causes the freezing AFTER I install the RME drivers; if I do not install the drivers the system does not freeze and it shows up in the TB control center fine.

This is starting to make me believe it is a RME Driver issue with the newest TB3 NVM Firmware/TB3 15E8 2020 controller and the KERNEL DMA vs USER new security system they implemented???

As this is the new TB Kernel DMA protection, maybe there is an issue w RME Drivers with this new system and I am the first to encounter it???

  • Registered: 2019-08-10
  • Posts: 9

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

UPDATE: I got a link to try the future 1.41.890 Intel Thunderbolt drivers, same problem

8 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,576

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

Your list old/new does not make sense. Did you mix some of the entries?

Assumed this is a DMA problem you might try the registry fix that was reported here and confirmed to work:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=30110

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

9 Reply by VredalertV (edited by VredalertV 2020-07-07 08:49:40)

  • Registered: 2019-08-10
  • Posts: 9

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

MC - THAT DID IT, the registry edit worked and fixed my problem!!! 

Yes I mixed up the NVM versions 50 is the 2020, 40 is the 2019 TB3

Thanks a million, and a big shout out to the amazing support from RME.  I almost gave up and switched notebooks again.

Somebody should look into this further though so the average pro-consumer doesn't give up if this happens ;>, I have a feeling it'll pop up a lot more in the 2020 TB computers.

It is strange it was only happening with the RME TB for me and no other TB devices. It seems to be something with Intel's new TB kernel DMA security combination with when the RME drivers are installed.

I did the following as in that post:

It seems the DMA remapping that is verified by the DMA Verifier process can be disabled via two registry entries.

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Services\pci\Parameters\DmaRemappingCompatible
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Services\USBXHCI\Parameters\DmaRemappingCompatible

are both set to 0x00000002(2) by default. These have to be changed to 0x00000000(0).

Cheers,

-V

10 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,576

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

That's good to hear, but might mean that you were right and the latest generation of TB chipsets (15E9) now strictly requires drivers that fully support DMA remapping. We will look into it.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2019-08-10
  • Posts: 9

Re: UFX+ Freezes Windows Boot when connected via Thunderbolt

Thanks... this quick, active response to new hardware changes and a commitment to stable driver updates is why I went all in on RME!  I am happy you and RME is so active on the forums for the users, I know other companies would just lag behind going through traditional customer support routes while they focus on marketing.

I always told all my musician friends to go all in on RME vs UA "for the drivers".

I knew it was a risk to get a notebook only a few weeks old, but I feel confident it'll work perfectly now and in the future.

Keep up the great work!