Topic: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

Hello everyone,

I am new to this forum and because I'm not an audio professional, I want to ask some questions.

Let me explain the current situation:
I have got some HiFi components like Tape, MiniDisc, SACD-Player, Network Streamer, Turntable, ... They are all connected to an digital integrated amplifier NAD C3900DD: https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-39 … amplifier/

In my C390DD I am using the ADC board NAD DD-AP1.

Now I want to record all kind of sources on PC and/or solid state recorder. I think the Tascam DA-3000 would be a good choice. But for the connection with my PC I will also need a good and versatile audio interface. Now I found some reviews about the RME Fireface UFX II and think, this would be the right choice for me.

My problem is, that I am very unsure if it would be possible to connect the Tascam, the Fireface and the NAD amplifier like this:
http://www.bilder-hosting.info/vorschau/rgh1597332134r.jpg

Would it be possible to route all inputs and outputs with this connections?

Unfortunately the NAD amplifier has only an AES/ABU input, but there is no AES/EBU output.

I would be very lucky if the experts of you could help me please. If you need more information, please let me know and I will provide this information.

Thanks and kind regards
websurfer83.

2 (edited by ramses 2020-08-13 17:37:07)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

If you buy an UFX II or UFX+ with DURec, then you have already a digital recorder for even up to 76 tracks (UFX)  that works even stand-alone simply connected to the UFX* without PC connected or online. You can use Harddisks, SSDs, USB sticks as recording medium.

If you have no real good reason to get the Tascam, then I would save the costs (€999).

Your NAD integrated amp seems to have optical SPDIF inputs and outputs.
UFX II / + support optical SPDIF on ADAT2, by this you should be able to connect UFX/NAD by optical SPDIF.
You need to check, which audio sources the NAD is able to send out on the optical output.

In a good case of luck this is all that you require.

In regards to UFX II vs UFX+ ... you should check whether it makes sense to you to get USB3/2 / Thunderbolt
as alternatives to connect your PC / Laptop.

More information about the features of the new UFX II / + in comparison to the older flagship model UFX, pls see my blog:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/

Good TOSLINK cables: I can recommend Mutec, because they can be even plugged when space between plugs is tight
and you can bundle multiple of them more easily if needed:
https://www.thomann.de/de/mutec_optisches_kabel_10m.htm

I made the experience that 15 +1 m works e.g. between RME UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, which gives you a nice flexibility for cabling in a room. It works even up to 192 kHz sample rate.

If you need to connect more devices digitally to your NAD, then I recommend you to use a TOSLINK switcher with a remote.
This one looks good from design, but supports only 96 kHz not 192 kHz like shown in the specs.
https://www.amazon.de/Oehlbach-Optosel- … op?ie=UTF8
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … lerangabe/
I got some help to replace them with TOSLINKs that really support 192 kHz..

Now I have a connection from UFX+ in recording corner to Optosel in the HiFi corner (15m TOSLINK cable from Mutec)
and 1m more from the switcher to ADI-2 Pro FS R BE.

I also connected TV and BluRay Player to TOSLINK switcher, so that the ADI-2 Pro makes D/A conversion for every digital source that I have, 1 still as reserve.

In your case you could use the TOSLINK switcher in front of the NAD ...

Another good think .. galvanic isolation / no hum because of optical SPDIF connections.

PC (e.g. as audio player or DURec recorder)
|
USB/TB
|
UFX+ >-----------+  TV  BluRay   reserve
^                       |    |     |           |
|                       TOSLINK Switcher
|                         |
+ NAD<-----------+

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

Do you require the track count offered by a UFX? The Babyface Pro for instance also supports SPDIF/ADAT via optical toslink, and has another four analog inputs built-in (two of which with mic preamp).

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

@ ramses und @ breun:
Thank you for your answers.

@ ramses:
I would like to use the Tascam because it offers very good AD- and DA-conversion and yes, from time to time I want to record some tracks on my very old-school tape deck because in our classic car we can only play tapes ;-)
And the Tascam really offers various inputs and outputs.

What would be the problem using electric SPDIF- and AES/EBU-connections like I have shown in my sketch?

The NAD offers TOSLINK inputs and one output, but at the moment it would be enough without a TOSLINK switcher.
Some time ago the NAD support wrote me, that the C390DD is able to send all analogue and digital input signals to the digital outputs. And my MiniDisc player comes from Tascam, so it is intended for professional use and the copy protection bit should not be send to the digital output(s).

I checked the differences between UFX II and UFX+. My PC only offers USB2/3, not Thunderbolt port. So I think I can save the money for it.

@ breun:
Did you recommend this thing here: https://www.rme-audio.de/de_babyface-pro-fs.html
I don't want an USB bus powered interface anymore. Some time ago I had a little Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, but it drove me crazy because of the hum. The only way to solve this was to remove the ground from power cable of the PC. But we all know that removing the ground connection could be very dangerous. So I decided to upgrade to a 19 inch Focusrite Clarett 8 Pre USB interface with its own power supply and the hum was gone.

5 (edited by ramses 2020-08-13 20:38:23)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

> I would like to use the Tascam because it offers very good AD- and DA-conversion

The device has been introduced 2013 to the market and then you can be sure, that converters have been used for this design, which are already available on the market and which are proven. So I assume that these Burr Brown converters are at minimum 8-9y old. So I do not get this point from you why you want especially this device for AD/DA conversion.

Current RME converters from RME should have better specs.

> and yes, from time to time I want to record some tracks on my very old-school tape deck because
> in our classic car we can only play tapes ;-) And the Tascam really offers various inputs and outputs.

The same is applicable for the UFX II and UFX+.

And I am still wondering, why you want to spoil the around €1000 for the Tascam, IF you intend anyway to get an UFX * with DURec. Sorry, but this does not make any sense to me.

> What would be the problem using electric SPDIF- and AES/EBU-connections like I have shown in my sketch?

1. of all again my point: wastes money for a device which is most likely not required in any way

2. instead of making the UFX II the center of your recording solution you have always the Tascam in between the UFX II and your HiFi

3. because the Tascam does not support optical SPDIF. Instead of this you need to use coaxial SPDIF without galvanic isolation, which is more sensitive to outside electrical influences / hum.

With the UFX II you can do everything.
Use it completely standalone or with a PC/Laptop ....
Store / Recall up to 6 prepared configurations / routing, for every situation that you need.
You can record any input with DURec to normal medium.
You can record with a DAW, with simply a recording program, with Global Record from RME (lightweight recording solution).

You have already two very good phones outputs and plenty of I/O ports that are of good use.

You have two options in terms of D/A conversion
a) use the D/A converters of the UFX II and connect it to the balanced ports of the NAD or
b) use the D/A converters of the NAD .. put maybe this TOSLINK switcher in front of it and then you can
let the NAD make D/A conversion for UFX II, TV, bluray
c) or even a mix of the two ... whatever you want.

You can even use a smaller RME recording interface like BBF Pro FS or UC or UCX without DURec.
Then simply use RME Global Record to record something or a music player.
This you can route to analog outputs and there you can connect a cassette deck to make recordings for your oldtimer.

But whatever comes to my mind .. I see absolutely no necessity for the Tascam device. It makes no sense to me.
I see no advantage by getting it. Or you think you need or simply want such a device.

And even then I would think about simply to connect it to a recording interface like a tape deck.
I would digitally connect recording interface and your NAD by TOSLINK cable (optical SPDIF).
Eventually get the TOSLINK switch additionally.
And then I would let your NAD perform the D/A conversion.
It can perform it surely as nice as the Tascam.
But then you have galvanic isolation in place and the Tascam does not need to stay on all the time.

You should also check what all needs to be connected to the recording interface.
Maybe BBF Pro is to small in terms of analog I/O ports.
Maybe UC or UCX would be better.
Most flexible UFX II with DURec.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 (edited by breun 2020-08-13 22:32:25)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

websurfer83 wrote:

@ breun:
Did you recommend this thing here: https://www.rme-audio.de/de_babyface-pro-fs.html
I don't want an USB bus powered interface anymore. Some time ago I had a little Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, but it drove me crazy because of the hum. The only way to solve this was to remove the ground from power cable of the PC. But we all know that removing the ground connection could be very dangerous. So I decided to upgrade to a 19 inch Focusrite Clarett 8 Pre USB interface with its own power supply and the hum was gone.

I use a Babyface Pro (non-FS) myself, which is one generation older than the Babyface Pro FS, but I don't get any hum. If power over USB would have added hum, I'm sure RME wouldn't have settled for that solution for any of their products. By the way, you can also run a Babyface using an external power supply, but as far as I know this is only there for when you want to run the unit in standalone mode without a computer.

7 (edited by ramses 2020-08-14 00:26:27)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

Basically this is my proposal under certain assumptions that I understood you correct in terms of old tape deck in old car.

Recording interface is discussable .. but I tool the UFX II, because you picked also a digital recorder (Tascam).

D/A conversion can be done at the NAD ...
or alternatively also by using an ADI-2 DAC FS / Pro FS R BE.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kitonszmknpajcb/2020-08-14%20Proposal%20UFX%20II%20%2B%20DURec.jpg?dl=1

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

breun wrote:

I use a Babyface Pro (non-FS) myself, which is one generation older than the Babyface Pro FS, but I don't get any hum. If power over USB would have added hum, I'm sure RME wouldn't have settled for that solution for any of their products. By the way, you can also run a Babyface using an external power supply, but as far as I know this is only there for when you want to run the unit in standalone mode without a computer.

I had also tested with a Focusrite Clarett 4 Pre with an external power supply. I still had hum in my nearfield monitors. I suppose that the reason was a ground loop which came from the power outlet (TN-C System - "klassische Nullung", which uses a PEN instead of seperate PE an N).

The solution was a 19 inch interface with its own ground connection.

@ ramses:
Thank you very much for your sketch. Your ideas are good, but I still want to modify it a little bit because I don't like to have an external TOSLINK switch and at the moment I don't have any ground loops over electric SPDIF, because I am using a double galvanic isolator for the antenna connection to my cable operator and my network switch for the audio devices is already connected with fiber cables over SFP to my other network.

Now I made a new sketch in which I tried to combine my ideas with yours:
http://www.bilder-hosting.info/vorschau/jdv1597398466b.jpg

Please let me explain a few things:
1. The Tascam DA-3000 is now optional if I don't like the DURec of the RME or for the SACD (see next point)
2. My SACD-player is able to send more than 48 kHz over SPDIF (only electric), but the NAD accepts on electric SPDIF only up to 48 kHz. So the only way to get the full audio resolution is to use balanced XLR (unfortunately there are 2 conversions, first D/A in the player, second A/D in the amplifier). In the data sheet of the Tascam DA-3000 is written, that his SPDIF input accepts up to 192 kHz.
3. You wrote me that I can use the UFX II to make analogue records on the Tape deck. I thought the TRS outputs of the UFX are only symmetric. Can I use a cable like the Cordial CFU 0,9 PC?
Or will I have to buy a device like this: https://www.thomann.de/de/radial_engineering_j_iso.htm

I think in my new sketch the UFX II would be the center of my recording solution and the Tascam would only be optional.

Would you agree with this solution?

9 (edited by ramses 2020-08-14 12:49:02)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

BTW .. you will need the XLR connection for SACD, because SACD audio can't be send via SPDIF (copyright reasons and too limited bandwidth).

I looked into the NAD manual of your amplifier. You are most likely not right in terms of optical SPDIF only supporting up to 48 kHz. Only the two USB ports seem to be limited in terms of bandwidth, USB Type-A supports e.g. FLAC up to 48 kHz, USB-Type B FLAC up to 96 kHz. All other digital ports (coaxial and optical SPDIF and AES/EBU) support 32 - 192 kHz.

The analog ports of the UFX II are "servosymmetric" (see manual 19.1), balanced and unbalanced cabling is automatically detected, depends on whether you connect a cable with TRS plugs for balanced operation or with TS plugs for unbalanced operation. So you can connect many different analog gear as you like. Different reference levels are supporterd per port, etc. The best overview you get in chapter 39 of the manual about port capabilities like supported reference levels, etc:
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_ufx2_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_ufx2_e.pdf

Please note if you would like to connect the Tascam via AES .. AES is bridged with ADAT2, see block diagram.
And ADAT2 is the only ADAT port supporting optical SPDIF...
So if you use ADAT2 for optical SPDIF connections, then you can not really separate the routing between ADAT2 and AES.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

10 (edited by websurfer83 2020-08-15 11:30:46)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

ramses wrote:

BTW .. you will need the XLR connection for SACD, because SACD audio can't be send via SPDIF (copyright reasons and too limited bandwidth).

I looked into the NAD manual of your amplifier. You are most likely not right in terms of optical SPDIF only supporting up to 48 kHz.

This is really strange. My SACD-player (Arcam CDS27) has the option in the menu to set the SPDIF output to "not limited". But when I set it to more than 48 kHz I cannot hear anything. Very strange...

ramses wrote:

The analog ports of the UFX II are "servosymmetric" (see manual 19.1), balanced and unbalanced cabling is automatically detected, depends on whether you connect a cable with TRS plugs for balanced operation or with TS plugs for unbalanced operation.

Thanks. This is really fine so I don't have to buy another device for conversion balanced > unbalanced.

ramses wrote:

Please note if you would like to connect the Tascam via AES .. AES is bridged with ADAT2, see block diagram.
And ADAT2 is the only ADAT port supporting optical SPDIF...
So if you use ADAT2 for optical SPDIF connections, then you can not really separate the routing between ADAT2 and AES.

Okay, you're right, I've looked in the block diagram. AES/EBU inputs/outputs and ADAT2 inputs/outputs are not independant. That could be a problem. In the manual I could not find any information about this except the block diagram. If there is an input signal coming both over AES/EBU and ADAT2(SPDIF mode), what does the Fireface do? Can I change in the menu which input I want to use? Or will it mix both signals? Or what will the device do?

And the other questions with the Tascam are:
1. If I want to record a signal on the Tascam which is coming from the NAD over the optical SPDIF to the UFX II and then over AES/EBU input of the Tascam, does the Tascam route the signal back to his AES/EBU output?
http://www.bilder-hosting.info/viewer.p … 87244z.jpg

2. If I want to play some music which is stored on the Tascam and hear it over the speakers connected to the NAD, would it be possible without problems? Or would the UFX II route the signal back over his AES/EBU output to the Tascam because of the bridge?
http://www.bilder-hosting.info/viewer.p … 87259a.jpg

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

to 1), I don't know the tascam, this  is RME forum

to 2) with TM FX you can route any combination of input signals
- from HW inputs (the actual inputs on the device)
- from SW playback channels (audio coming from computer)
to any output

Loopback is also supported so that you can route such a complex submix on an output to the corresponding input of this channel where loopback became activated.
By this you can record such a submix ... also audio from any source of the PC (youtube, ..)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 (edited by websurfer83 2020-08-15 21:02:24)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

ramses wrote:

to 1), I don't know the tascam, this  is RME forum

Okay, that's right, I will ask Tascam and as soon as I've got an answer I will post it here.

ramses wrote:

to 2) with TM FX you can route any combination of input signals
- from HW inputs (the actual inputs on the device)
- from SW playback channels (audio coming from computer)
to any output

But yesterday you wrote this:

ramses wrote:

Please note if you would like to connect the Tascam via AES .. AES is bridged with ADAT2, see block diagram.
And ADAT2 is the only ADAT port supporting optical SPDIF...
So if you use ADAT2 for optical SPDIF connections, then you can not really separate the routing between ADAT2 and AES.

Now I'm confused. Is it possible to disable ADAT2 In when using AES/EBU In, disable AES/EBU In when using ADAT2 In, ...?

BTW: Yesterday I forgot to answer one thing of your sketch: I already ripped all my Audio-CDs with EAC and added/corrected the tags with Mp3tag, so now about 900 CDs are all on my NAS box als FLAC-files in the best-possible quality :-)

13 (edited by ramses 2020-08-15 21:10:51)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

We talk about two different things here

a) hardware design of the unit, with only one speciality that ADAT2/AES are kind of bridged
b) general TM FX routing capabilities

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

14 (edited by websurfer83 2020-08-15 21:23:50)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

Thanks for your help. So it should be possible to avoid this loops:

1. For this scenario: http://www.bilder-hosting.info/viewer.p … 87244z.jpg
Route from ADAT2 In (SPDIF) to AES/EBU Out, disable AES/EBU In and ADAT2 Out (SPDIF)

2. And for this scenario: http://www.bilder-hosting.info/viewer.p … 87259a.jpg
Route from AES/EBU In to ADAT2 Out (SPDIF), disable ADAT2 In (SPDIF) and AES/EBU Out

Again my question: would this be possible? And can I store this routing as a shortcut, so that I can load it even without PC?

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

If I remember right .. If you send something to ADAT2 then its also being sent to AES and vice versa.
And of cource you can store routings ..
This doesn't impact the normal routing capabilities in any way, the only thing is that these two channels are not separated.
So with this information you should be able to follow the signal flow of all of your use cases, whether all is possible that you want.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

ramses wrote:

to 1), I don't know the tascam, this  is RME forum

Now here is the answer from Tascam:

Tascam wrote:

Even with AES / EBU as the source, the DA-3000 outputs the input signal at the AES / EBU output. The outputs cannot be switched off, so that the input signal is always available at the analog output and the digital outputs corresponding to the recording format, except during playback.

So for this scenario it is necessary to disable AES/EBU input in the Fireface. I hope that this is possible...

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

Another question:
Do I need to have a word clock connection between RME Fireface and Tascam DA-3000? Which device should be Master?

18 (edited by ramses 2020-08-30 17:03:10)

Re: Connecting Fireface UFX II to Solid State recorder and HiFi-Amplifier

websurfer83 wrote:

Another question:
Do I need to have a word clock connection between RME Fireface and Tascam DA-3000? Which device should be Master?

Either use WC or send clock signal to DA-3000 by using one of its digital inputs (AES or SPDIF).

It would be an advantage to make the main recording interface to clock master, because then you only need to set the sample rate in the application. The other devices (clock slaves) are then able to automatically read clock from the UFX II through a digital input like AES, ADAT, SPDIF, MADI ...

Such topics have been discussed quite often in this forum and can surely be found by using forum search.
Or by using google search this way: searchstring site:forum.rme-audio.de

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13