1 Topic by darkstar (edited by darkstar 2020-09-06 14:17:41)

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Topic: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

Hi!

I've browsed this forum for a long time now and it's time to register, since I can't find a good answer.

I would need recommendations for a FireWire PCIe card to use with the Fireface 400 (and hopefully also Fireface 802 in the future), on a PC with Windows 10 / 64-bit.

I'm aware of that there are no guarantees, but I guess there at least should be cards that is more likely to work than others?

Which PCIe cards would you recommend to increase my chances to get my Fireface 400 up and running on my Win10/64-bit PC?

  • ramses
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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

This one worked at least under Win7 reliably: https://www.amazon.de/Exsys-15-06-2257- … s=EX-16415

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

ramses wrote:

This one worked at least under Win7 reliably: https://www.amazon.de/Exsys-15-06-2257- … s=EX-16415


Thank you! Sound interesting.

When I search for the model number, I however get a different picture of the card:

Here is the picture from the manufacturer, however Amazon show a smaller card. Which one is it?

https://www.exsys.ch/en/pcie-cards/fire … ts-ti.html

Also, it seems like this card (according to the manufacturers site) have 3 chipsets for each port, for maximum throughput.

4 Reply by darkstar (edited by darkstar 2020-09-06 14:55:14)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

Also, I wonder about buffered vs. unbuffered.
On a site, they review 3 cards, where one is "unbuffered". Would that be something positive for a Fireface 400 interface?
https://nerdtechy.com/best-pcie-firewire-card

Also it is mentioned in an RME thread here, too bad there's no too much info:
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25562


- "As a completely unbuffered card, this will have the most stable performance of the bunch."

Whatever that means?

  • ramses
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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

This card: https://www.amazon.de/Exsys-15-06-2257- … s=EX-16415
More I do not have to say to this topic, this is the one which I bought several years ago.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

ramses wrote:

This card: https://www.amazon.de/Exsys-15-06-2257- … s=EX-16415
More I do not have to say to this topic, this is the one which I bought several years ago.

Okay, thank you!

Too bad there don't seem to be more definitive choices. I've read in the forums that SIIG cards seems to work well.

Also, it must be a newer card that supports Windows 10.

Are there at least any lists of which TI chipsets that mostly do work and which TI chipsets that mostly doesn't?

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-09-06 16:06:38)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

No possibility to sell 400 and get an USB based interface which is more future proof ? UFX II with DURec ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 Reply by darkstar (edited by darkstar 2020-09-06 16:13:00)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

ramses wrote:

No possibility to sell 400 and get an USB based interface which is more future proof ? UFX II with DURec ?

Just bought the FF400 to try out RME. Want to start a bit cheaper, then if everything works fine and I like the interface, the mixer, the audio quality and all, which I'm sure I will, then I'll get the FF802, UFX+ or UFXII.

I want to buy the correct and working Firewire card from the beginning though, so I won't have any problems.


I'm just right now collecting TI chipset model numbers to see which one that might be a good choice. Found these so far:
TSB82AA2
TSB82AA2B
TSB82AA2-EP
XIO2213A
XIO2213AZAY
XIO2213B
X102200A
X102200B

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-09-06 16:56:53)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

Sorry but if you want to learn about RME and do not exclude to get smth like 802, UFX II or UFX+, then it makes no sense to me to start with a 15 year old firewire interface on a Windows operating system which even does not support firewire anymore officially.

Go through my RME reviews, you will get a lot of information there:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … BCbersicht

Look at RME tutorial videos which are excellent and to the point without wasting any time for unnecessary information:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/

After that you should have a quite nice overview about the different recording interfaces.
The excel in my blog article about RME recording interfces details the different interface capabilities from various sources.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … B-MADIfac/
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … 0-08-xlsx/

After that you have already a nice understanding about what you get.
You could additionally read the UFX+ manual, because this recording interface has the most complete feature set incl. USB3, Thunderbolt and MADI:
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_ufxplus_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_ufxplus_e.pdf

Then get UFX+ from a dealer which gives you 30d for testing and the possibilty to send back in case you should not like.

Sorry, its gread that RME makes something like this possible, which is a perfect example of their long term driver support
BUT .. I wouldn't waste my time then with an outdated product where you even have no official support for firewire on Windows anymore.

This is the way I use my UFX+, maybe you are interested in reading:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -DURec-DE/
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Cber-MADI/
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

ramses wrote:

Sorry but if you want to learn about RME and do not exclude to get smth like 802, UFX II or UFX+, then it makes no sense to me to start with a 15 year old firewire interface on a Windows operating system which even does not support firewire anymore officially.


Thank you for all the links! Superb! I've actually ready several of them and also the comparison excel chart, which I've actually even expanded with the FF800 myself.

The thing is that I bought the FF 400 for € 100 and before I did all I read was how praised RME was for outstanding driver support for even 20 year old interfaces, still continuing to update their drivers, all the amazing support and so forth.
So I though, why not give RME a try with the FF 400 for € 100, since everyone seems to seem it's still perfectly supported with updated drivers, instead of spending € 2000 (20 x times more) on another RME product.
And if everything works out and I like it, I will just buy the 802, UFX+ or UFX II. Yeah, probably even then people will tell me to not buy the 802 because it's starting to get "old"... but then again, in that case, I can't understand what's the fuss about all RME's renowned driver support for even very old interfaces. So I guess that would not be a problem and people would still recommend the 802?

Anyhow. If there are FireWire cards with Win10 drivers, I can't see why it would be a huge problem that Win10 doesn't support it officially. I mean in a couple of years, or whenever the new Windows will come, maybe they stop supporting USB 2. Should everyone then throw away their newly acquired UFX II?

It's quite simple really. If I cannot get the FF400 to work properly in Win10, something which should be possible regarding RME's renowned driver support for old interfaces, then I can as well chose another brand that is cheaper, like MOTU for example. So either the great RME support is true, or it's not smile ...and we'll see about that quite soon. I'm sure RME does delivered based on all the good things I've read. Let's hope it does too! smile

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-09-06 18:42:08)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

802 is a special case, its has analog mic potis, where you can not store gain settings digitally in snapshots.
It has been designed for people who want to have real potis ...
But .. to be honest, its so nice if you can entirely save and restore a complete setup, all settings, all routings digitally.
Analog poties like on the 802 do not make any sense to me anymore.

Other thing .. as Firewire is definitively a dead horse, I see no merit in spending €1345 (before €1599, prices decreased)
to buy an interface with Firewire 400 support and with support with the older USB driver, which has 48 samples as lowest ASIO buffersize.

If budget allows I would get the UFX+, to get
- Thunderbolt and USB3 (which can be used for USB2 as well, but then without MADI channels)
- With the lastest USB driver which allows down to 32 samples ASIO buffersize for lowest latencies
  and the same applicable for Thunderbolt which is in fact external PCIe !
Then you get all the nice features like
- Autoset, DURec
- ARC USB useable in standalone mode
- Fully standalone and operateable by display
- Latest overhaul of analog section
- Real time clock for DURec recordings to get a timestamp on the files
- MADI bus for much better expandability compared to ADAT where the amount of channels quickly decreases with higher sample rates
- ..

USB is a de facto standard that won't go that fast .. nobody will throw away any UFX *. But fact is that FF400 is now 15y old and in further 10 years it will be 25y old, but USB will most likely still be used for mice, keyboards, recording interfaces, etc ...

I can't convince you of anything that you do not want and this is not the point, I only wanted to make you a good proposal, but if you have other priorities or certain budget restrictions or simply are undecided, then do whats doable for you now
and enjoy RME no matter how you achieve it to check it out... I wish you much fun like I have with RME, and if its a FF400, well then be it wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 Reply by darkstar (edited by darkstar 2020-09-06 19:34:19)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

ramses wrote:

802 is a special case, its has analog mic potis, where you can not store gain settings digitally in snapshots.
It has been designed for people who want to have real potis ...
But .. to be honest, its so nice if you can entirely save and restore a complete setup, all settings, all routings digitally.
Analog poties like on the 802 do not make any sense to me anymore.

Other thing .. as Firewire is definitively a dead horse, I see no merit in spending €1345 (before €1599, prices decreased)
to buy an interface with Firewire 400 support and with support with the older USB driver, which has 48 samples as lowest ASIO buffersize.

If budget allows I would get the UFX+, to get
- Thunderbolt and USB3 (which can be used for USB2 as well, but then without MADI channels)
- With the lastest USB driver which allows down to 32 samples ASIO buffersize for lowest latencies
  and the same applicable for Thunderbolt which is in fact external PCIe !
Then you get all the nice features like
- Autoset, DURec
- ARC USB useable in standalone mode
- Fully standalone and operateable by display
- Latest overhaul of analog section
- Real time clock for DURec recordings to get a timestamp on the files
- MADI bus for much better expandability compared to ADAT where the amount of channels quickly decreases with higher sample rates
- ..

USB is a de facto standard that won't go that fast .. nobody will throw away any UFX *. But fact is that FF400 is now 15y old and in further 10 years it will be 25y old, but USB will most likely still be used for mice, keyboards, recording interfaces, etc ...

I can't convince you of anything that you do not want and this is not the point, I only wanted to make you a good proposal, but if you have other priorities or certain budget restrictions or simply are undecided, then do whats doable for you now
and enjoy RME no matter how you achieve it to check it out... I wish you much fun like I have with RME, and if its a FF400, well then be it wink

Yeah that seems to be a very nice interface. I, however, do not need DURec, MADI, Autoset, or anything fancy like that.
All I need is many in/out ports with very high quality AD/DA and very good stability with no issues, no crashes etc.

It it seems like the FF 400 could deliver that, although the UFX+ or even the UFX II would be a tad better at this. But then for what price.

All I want now is to make the FF 400 to work, so I can feel out this system. And I mean, if I can't get good driver support and stability with this, and maybe I can't even get good driver support and stability with the 802, and then I can as well chose which ever other brand there is of higher quality that is still cheaper than RME. So I think this will be a very good test of RME and if it really lives up to its reputation.

Just gotta find a FireWire PCIe card that works good. smile

13 Reply by darkstar (edited by darkstar 2020-09-07 00:41:26)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

So I've found a card that's available for me to buy (not all cards are available, like Exsys for example, and it would have to be ordered from another country).

The one I found is the Startech PEX1394B3:

https://www.startech.com/en-eu/cards-adapters/pex1394b3

It says: "Built with a native PCI Express chipset, no bridge chip", "The 2b, 1a card features a native (single chip) PCI Express chipset - resulting in faster, more reliable and cost effective performance than expansion cards that utilize a "bridge" chip.".

That "no bridge chip" sounds good and I hope it is good too and compatible with RME.
It does have the TI XIO2213B chipset, and to be more precise the XIO2213BZAY if one is to trust the pictures of the card.
Startech approx: €75
--------------------
Another card I was looking at was the DeLock 89153: https://www.delock.com/produkte/G_89153/merkmale.html
However the DeLock doesn't explicitly say it is a TI XIO2213B anywhere, not even on their own site, and the only evidence of this would be quite bad pictures there one can see it probably says XIO2213BZAY on the chip. The specs only states "TI chipset" nothing more.
DeLock approx: €52
--------------------
Also there's the Vantec UGT-FW210 card that seem quite similar to both DeLock and
https://www.vantecusa.com/products_deta … =130#tab-2
Also the Vantec doesn't seem to state what kind of TI chip it is, only that it is a TI. Even though, just as with the DeLock, one can see on the picture that it probably is a XIO2213BZAY chipset.
Vantec approx: € 60


By the way, all three cards seems to be almost identical. Only some certain components seems to be different. The board layout seems to be the exact same.


What do you think? Is the Startech a good choice?
It'll sit on an ASUS Z170-A motherboard with i7-6700K, on Win10 64-bit

14 Reply by fl (edited by fl 2020-09-07 14:00:21)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

No matter which card you decide to buy, you'll still need to replace the stock Win10 Firewire driver with the "Legacy" driver, originally developed for Win8. This is not included within a standard Win10 installation - you'll need to download it, and then go through the TWO part installation process. Don't worry, it's easy to do once you know how. Easy to follow instructions can be found on the Startech website here:
https://www.startech.com/en-us/faq/fire … river-swap

In Step 3 of those instructions, it shows where to find the 64 bit version of the driver. If you are running a 32 bit version of Windows, you should install the corresponding version, which will be found in the same location, but in a folder labeled "x86_driver". If you are unsure which you have installed on your system, just type "winver" into the Start Menu's search box, and the pop-up should tell you.

If you would prefer to download the driver directly from Microsoft, go here:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2970191

Frank Lockwood
https://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800, Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win10, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

fl's Website

15 Reply by darkstar (edited by darkstar 2020-09-07 14:54:40)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

fl wrote:

No matter which card you decide to buy, you'll still need to replace the stock Win10 Firewire driver with the "Legacy" driver, originally developed for Win8. This is not included within a standard Win10 installation - you'll need to download it, and then go through the TWO part installation process. Don't worry, it's easy to do once you know how. Easy to follow instructions can be found on the Startech website here:
https://www.startech.com/en-us/faq/fire … river-swap

In Step 3 of those instructions, it shows where to find the 64 bit version of the driver. If you are running a 32 bit version of Windows, you should install the corresponding version, which will be found in the same location, but in a folder labeled "x86_driver". If you are unsure which you have installed on your system, just type "winver" into the Start Menu's search box, and the pop-up should tell you.

If you would prefer to download the driver directly from Microsoft, go here:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2970191

Thank you so much! I'll do just that then! Let's hope for the best!

I ordered the Startech and it should arrive this week, I really hope before the weekend. I'll report back about how it went. Although I won't be able to give a complete report before the whole studio is up and running.
This'll be fun smile

16 Reply by fl (edited by fl 2020-09-07 15:14:03)

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

I made a small mistake in my earlier post - if you want to determine whether you're running a 32 or 64 bit version of Windows, you should type "control panel" into the Start Menu's search box, and then click on "control panel" in the list that comes up. That will open the window with all Control Panels - click on the one named "System", which will show you whether it's 32 or 64 bit.

Frank Lockwood
https://LockwoodARS.com
Fireface 800, Firmware 2.77
Drivers: Win10, 3.125; Mac, 3.36

fl's Website

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

darkstar wrote:

I'm just right now collecting TI chipset model numbers to see which one that might be a good choice. Found these so far:
TSB82AA2
TSB82AA2B
TSB82AA2-EP
XIO2213A
XIO2213AZAY
XIO2213B
X102200A
X102200B

The X102200A is known to be problematic, I'm not aware of issues with the others.

I'm not surprised a card that was purchased years ago looks different now - FW cards aren't products with a long product life, they can change over time with components etc... I would not expect much consistency, which is why a list makes limited sense.


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

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Re: List of FireWire PCIe cards that is more likely to work?

fl wrote:

I made a small mistake in my earlier post - if you want to determine whether you're running a 32 or 64 bit version of Windows, you should type "control panel" into the Start Menu's search box, and then click on "control panel" in the list that comes up. That will open the window with all Control Panels - click on the one named "System", which will show you whether it's 32 or 64 bit.

Thank you! I'll certainly follow these steps! smile