1 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-23 21:58:05)

Topic: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Hello once more,

I have a case where a humble 60 watts but good sounding amp is driving my monitors.
Currently the integrated DAC is converting the optical spdif from RME Digiface USB.

Now with the ADI-2 what I found on my recent search for A to D conversion, I intend to use the ADI-2 FS not only as ADC but also DAC therewith it becomes "external DAC" connected to the amplifiers analog side.

Possible to answer if the ADI-2 as external DAC, comparing this to internal DAC, will add quality or stability in the stero image? I know that any conversion benefits from a good conversion, but this is replacing possibly apples with apples.

Some thought:
from hifi vendors: I find it difficult to assess "smoother, more precise and more dynamic" without DAC specs.

Does anyone have an opinion or experience with this?

2 (edited by N00b 2020-10-16 19:08:52)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

They forgot to tell about the wide soundstage and the 3D stereo scene!!!
My personnal opinion: audiophile's BS... I really think nowaday there is very little sound difference between 2 well designed DACs...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

I have some experience with Hegel, but not the models you are discussing.
Before I recently purchased ADI-2 FS PRO I was using Hegel HD12 for number of years. Sound quality was great - I had no complaints whatsoever. However, I did have to at one point switch from connecting HD12 via USB to my windows 10 computer to instead connecting via optical output. This is because USB simply stopped working on my PC (for Hegel only) and I could not figure out how to fix it. Multiple emails to Hegel support went unanswered (I never heard back from their support the entire time I owned the unit, even early on after I bought it brand new and had some questions). Sound quality however did not seem to change at all when I was forced to switch from USB to optical. Eventually however, even with optical I started having some glitches (device would occasionally not show up under audio devices etc). At that point I got fed up and started looking for DAC replacement (some research and reading reviews eventually led me to RME). I could not be happier with my RME devices so far (I also since that time acquired UCX mixer for recording microphone and guitar). As far as sound quality comparison, I think RME is a step up to that Hegel model for sure, although it's not that easy for me to compare apples to apples because I also at the same time upgraded my monitors to Adam A7X (from Focal CMS40) - this is probably even a more significant upgrade in SQ than the ADI2 vs Hegel. Not sure if any of this helps - good luck with whatever you decide to do. By the way, this forum is fantastic (especially given my experience with Hegel support - this is night and day improvement and another reason to seriously consider RME).

4 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-16 21:50:39)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

With Tomg's first hand accounting of his Hegel experience, we can compare that to the RME owners experiences.   

Here, we have access to many knowlegeable information resources, not the least of which is the Product Designer himself.    Quite often, User questions are answered within hours...(if not Minutes)  You'd never be left out "in the Cold" here.

Let's consider as well that RME specializes in Professional Level A/D, D/A devices.  It's not a side-line "add on" for them.   Digital Audio is their PRIMARY Focus.

I don't have the Strength in my Texting Thumb to even venture into the Vast Array of RME features.   Those features alone place the RME at the highest tier of performance.

Hmmm.  Methinks the RME is your Best Choice.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

N00b wrote:

They forgot to tell about the wide soundstage and the 3D stereo scene!!!
My personnal opinion: audiophile's BS... I really think nowaday there is very little sound difference between 2 well designed DACs...

N00b,

Have we forgotten everything?  You omitted the "Chocolatey Vocals", "Velvety Textures", and best of all...the "Voluptuous Tonality"!!  smile smile

FieldStu...sorry Man. Long story..  smile

Get excited for your future RME!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

6 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-24 22:53:52)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Thanks for the confirmations so far of my thoughts. Being complete I have been in touch with their support on some setup questions and that always worked out well. A question on how their in-the-amp DAC would perform against a dedicated outboard DAC not answered.

In their news about the new replacement product for the one that I own, they seem to dumb down the integrated DAC in the product, other hand showing the analog audio path would be fairly clean and strong. ref https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ti5MgZCHFIc

In short I think the amp will benefit from a signal coming from a cleaner DAC then what is built in.
Still always happy that RME devices are of (very) good quality. So some excitement smile

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Is in anyones opinion ADI-2 FS (so the most simple) AD/DA converter sufficient for this situation or should I better look into the ADI-2 dac or pro versions?

8 (edited by KaiS 2020-10-18 01:12:14)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

fieldstu wrote:

Is in anyones opinion ADI-2 FS (so the most simple) AD/DA converter sufficient for this situation or should I better look into the ADI-2 dac or pro versions?

The ADI-2 FS is a DAC without any of the other ADI-2's DSP and other advantagous configuration options.

I doubt that you will hear the slightest sound difference to what you have (except see below).
The power of the ADI-2 DAC / ADI-2 Pro lies in the extreme versatility.

E.g. the different DA-filters selectable in those do in fact make a sound difference.
Not to mention the EQ and other processings.

That ADI-2 DAC / ADI-2 Pro are some of the best DACs on the market is just the icing on this cake.


I did a lot of blind ABX testing with DA-converters.
If you listen at 1/100dB exact same level, today the differences on DACs are extremly hard to detect at all, even on the highest resolution headphones around, like the STAX SR-009.

Don't belive these masses of home-made comparisons published on the internet.
People don't compare under controlled conditions, have different levels, need to cross-plug cables to switch converters etc.
Then fall into the placebo trap.

9 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-18 14:33:20)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Stu,

I took a cursory glance at your H90 online.  Rather nice looking bit of gear.  After sorting through all the mfr "buzzwords", I did find the "User Configurable" Line Input to be of interest.  This could be good, and allow us to use the Hegel in the same way we would an Amplifier, or Active Loudspeaker possesing variable input sensitivity.  What often is the case, is that an Integrated Amp will have a fixed line level input, which forces us to set a fixed volume on the ADI-2DAC.  In this way, we lose the functionality of RME features such as "Auto Ref", and "Dynamic Loudness".   We then must use the Integrated's Volume Control, which is most assuredly NOT as precise as the RME's.  Perhaps the Hegel gives us a more desirable option.

All that yammering aside...my "Ideal" is for the RME to be MASTER, and the Hegel to be solely the Power Amplifier.   

There's more...but we'll focus on one thing at a time.

Best!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

10 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-19 01:15:18)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Curt962 wrote:

...my "Ideal" is for the RME to be MASTER, and the Hegel to be solely the Power Amplifier.

Curt, thanks. I can configure the amplifier's analog input so that it gets assigned a fixed high volume setting of 85%. This mimics somewhat a power amp scenario losing the option to control the volume on the amp. I’d always want to be able to control the RME volume output. Is this in line with what you mean?

With the amp line input at consumer level,
can the RME ADI be set to a certain maximum analog output level dimmed to match or be scaled to the consumer line level input of the amp? (RME has very high level outputs).

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Manual, ch 10.1
Output level switchable: +4 dBu, +13 dBu, +19 dBu @ 0 dBFS

In terms of output level the ADI-2 DAC FS is better suited to adopt to consumer environment
Manual, ch 30.2
XLR
• Output level switchable +19 dBu, +13 dBu, +7 dBu, +1 dBu @ 0 dBFS
Cinch
As output XLR, but:
• Output level 6 dB lower than XLR (-5 dBu to +13 dBu @ 0 dBFS)

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10 Pro 2004, Cubase 10.5.20, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, ARC USB

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

To bring the figures into relation:

Most normal consumer CD-Player deliver 2 V, that's +8 dBu.
Every home integrated amplifier can handle this level with ease.

13 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-19 15:39:29)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

It was the +4dBu ADI output vs the -10dBV amp input of the hifi preamp that triggered. I do not want to damage the input circuitry and neither do want to search for the saturation point of the input by ear. I was understanding +4dBu is round 11dB hotter than the -10dBV input, but not direct how this is in terms of voltage.

ramses wrote:

Manual, ch 10.1
Output level switchable: +4 dBu[...]

&

KaiS wrote:

To bring the figures into relation:
Most normal consumer CD-Player deliver 2 V, that's +8 dBu.
Every home integrated amplifier can handle this level with ease.

&

ADI-2 Pro FS manual wrote:

..set the 'fixed' output level.
For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level (equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +13 dBu and Volume to -4.5 dB.

Is the -4dbu vs -10dbv then no issue for the input path on the amp?

KaiS wrote:

I doubt that you will hear the slightest sound difference to what you have (except see below).
The power of the ADI-2 DAC / ADI-2 Pro lies in the extreme versatility.[....]
If you listen at 1/100dB exact same level, today the differences on DACs are extremly hard to detect at all [...]

This makes a lot of sense to me. Does this put "ADI-2 FS" out of the equation i.e. should i then look at "ADI-2 Pro FS" instead?

14 (edited by KaiS 2020-10-19 16:08:24)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

fieldstu wrote:
KaiS wrote:

I doubt that you will hear the slightest sound difference to what you have (except see below).
The power of the ADI-2 DAC / ADI-2 Pro lies in the extreme versatility.[....]
If you listen at 1/100dB exact same level, today the differences on DACs are extremly hard to detect at all [...]

This makes a lot of sense to me. Does this put "ADI-2 FS" out of the equation i.e. should i then look at "ADI-2 Pro FS" instead?

I'm not sure it's clear, there are 3 different ADI-2:

• ADI-2 FS: No LCD display, no DSP functions, 1xAD-, 1xDA-Converter.
• ADI-2 DAC FS: LCD display, DSP functions, 1xDA-Converter.
• ADI-2 Pro FS: LCD display, DSP functions, 1xAD-, 2xDA- Converter with independent headphone outputs.

AD- Converter means analog input.

Connectivity and internal functions are all different.


If you don't need analog input and 2 fully independent headphone outputs, ADI-2 DAC FS is for you.

Level is a non issue,  due to their flexibility every model can be fit to your amplifier.


fieldstu wrote:

I do not want to damage the input circuitry and neither do want to search for the saturation point of the input by ear.

ADI-2's Line out doesn't have the power (current) capability to damage any input, don't worry!

Determining the clipping point by ear is a one minute job, very easy and obvious using a sinewave as source.

15 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-19 16:10:56)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Understood, in my quick summary same understanding:
•ADI-2 FS: AD+DA + analog volume pot
•ADI-2 DAC FS: DA + USB + processing + digitally controlled output level
•ADI-2 Pro FS: AD+DA + USB + processing + digitally controlled output level

Understanding from your earlier post about the auditioning I understood from with your detailed and controlled A/B testing of DACs that I'd not be able to spot the difference between ADI-2 FS and the internal DA converter in the integrated amp. Did I understand correctly?

Main purpose for me to obtain a converter is A to D which I would use 10% of my time (i record less than what i audition)
Added value for me is that the A to D converters in "ADI-2 FS" and "ADI-2 Pro FS" have D to A also onboard which i then could put to use and do this even 90% of my time (i audition more than what i record). Note I need to be able to hear the differences from the onboard integrated DAC otherwise the investment does not make sense to me.

I just need A to D and prefer a surpassing of my integrated D to A conversion.

16 (edited by KaiS 2020-10-19 16:16:10)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

So it's ADI-2 FS or ADI-2 Pro FS, depending on your wallet and if you need, maybe later, more flexibility and the comprehensive DSP functions.

The DSP-functions and DA-filter options CAN MAKE a sound difference.

17 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-19 16:19:55)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

so,

1) volume pot in "ADI-2 FS" adds a possible phasing/channel misalignment due to its analog nature?
2) +4dBu output vs -10dBV input even though 11.6dB difference is no problem for my hifi level preamp?
3) instead of limiting "ADI-2 Pro FS" to a fixed analog output volume, can you set a ceiling or better max (but controllable) level so that it does not go above e.g. (+13dBu and) -4,5 dB?

18 (edited by KaiS 2020-10-19 17:02:15)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

fieldstu wrote:

so,

1) volume pot in "ADI-2 FS" adds a possible phasing/channel misalignment due to its analog nature?
2) +4dBu output vs -10dBV input even though 11.6dB difference is no problem for my hifi level preamp?
3) instead of limiting "ADI-2 Pro FS" to a fixed analog output volume, can you set a ceiling or better max (but controllable) level so that it does not go above e.g. (+13dBu and) -4,5 dB?

1. Channel balance error: yes
Phase error: no

2. No problem.

3. Lock Volume: yes, see manual page 95.
Limit top Level: yes, but to the reference levels only.

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Hi again Stu!

No Analog Pots in the ADI-2 DAC.  IIRC, RME implemented a 42(!) Bit Digital Encoder.   Independent tests indicate that it is completely absent any tracking error, and other faults more commonly associated with Analog Pots.

It's cool stuff!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

20 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-24 22:55:17)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

> Q2) +4dBu output vs -10dBV input even though 11.6dB difference is no problem for my hifi level preamp?
> A2) No problem
confirmed: input up to 3v is acceptable.

21 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-20 23:00:59)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Hi again Stu!

No Analog Pots in the ADI-2 DAC.  IIRC, RME implemented a 42(!) Bit Digital Encoder.   Independent tests indicate that it is completely absent any tracking error, and other faults more commonly associated with Analog Pots.

It's cool stuff!

Curt

Thanks! I noted it is not mentioned in the product pages nor the manual, it might improve its unique selling point if someone did so smile

(edit: i misread at first and thought this dig encoder was in ADI-2 FS but it is not. instead an analog pot which you by the way can select to be in or not in the analog path to the rear outputs)

22 (edited by KaiS 2020-10-20 09:22:12)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

fieldstu wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Hi again Stu!

No Analog Pots in the ADI-2 DAC.  IIRC, RME implemented a 42(!) Bit Digital Encoder.   Independent tests indicate that it is completely absent any tracking error, and other faults more commonly associated with Analog Pots.

It's cool stuff!

Curt

Thanks! I noted it is not mentioned in the product pages nor the manual, it might improve its unique selling point if someone did so smile

In ADI-2 DAC FS 's and ADI-2 Pro FS's:
42bit is the precision of the digital domain processed Volume control calculation,
no analog signal goes through the tactile Volume dial /encoder.

42bit is not the precision of a post DA-conversion analog volume control, which does not exist.

This 42bit precision digital volume adjusted, still digital signal, is then going through the 24bit DA-converters.

See DAC's manual page 64/65, which describes the advantages in detail.



ADI-2 FS, the one without LCD display:
uses a simple analog potentiometer for volume control, that does have balance errors, as any analog control has.

23 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-20 14:28:25)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Good. All clear.

Then questions on the the nicetohave ADI-2 Pro FS... will do 1 by 1 smile
1) I aim to connect via toslink to/from the Digiface USB which is connected to my computer. Is it a waste of the stable clock in the ADI-2 Pro FS if I connect like this (Digiface USB = Master clock)?

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Accoding to RME (years/month ago in this forum): FS clock is there because its available, not because its really required.
The result of FS clock are maybe measureable, but not audible.

But anyway, no worries, the ADI-2 Pro performs D/A conversion always with its own internal FS clock.

Keep Digiface USB as clock master, if the application changes the clock, then the other devices behind the Digiface USB will learn the clock automatically from master. From operational perspective the best solution.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10 Pro 2004, Cubase 10.5.20, UFX+, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, ARC USB

25 (edited by KaiS 2020-10-20 14:28:35)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

fieldstu wrote:

Then questions on the the nicetohave ADI-2 Pro FS... will do 1 by 1 smile
1) I aim to connect via toslink to/from the Digiface USB which is connected to my computer. Is it a waste of the stable clock in the ADI-2 Pro FS if I connect like this (Digiface USB = Master clock)?

No.
SteadyClock or FS clock removes the unavoidable jitter internally, in the ADI-2 FS.

Jiitter is an unavoidable by-product of every digital signal transfer.
RME devices' AD-DA signal quality stays uneffected by jitter ever since "SteadyClock" was introduced.


BTW: all those separate, external jitter-removing-devices don't help much, because there has to be an inter-connect to the following DAC, and hey, after removed, jitter's back on this-interconnect.
Might help some with bad designed DACs, not needed with RME.

26 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-20 18:19:36)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

One more question on ADI-2 FS.

Say you use it in AD/DA mode, analog input setting = +4dBu, digital out is ADAT.

What will happen with the digital output when you just bring a signal of 0,3 volts / -8dBu into the AD path and then convert it? I'd say you lose some headroom or bits, but how does this work and is this significant?

27 (edited by KaiS 2020-10-20 19:30:09)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

fieldstu wrote:

One more question on ADI-2 FS.

Say you use it in AD/DA mode, analog input setting = +4dBu, digital out is ADAT.

What will happen with the digital output when you just bring a signal of 0,3 volts / -8dBu into the AD path and then convert it? I'd say you lose some headroom or bits, but how does this work and is this significant?

You would be perfectly fine.

I'm 100% sure that the ADI-2 FS's AD converter's resolution, S/N ratio and distortions is still a magnitude better than the quality of the source signal with ADI-2 FS's remaining 22bits resolution.
The natural analog source with 109dB S/N ratio is yet to be found.

It's common studio practise to leave some headroom when recording, for unexpected signal peaks.
12dB is about what I use.
The signal can later be normalized to -1dBFS (or so I suggest) in the digital domain.

Analog signals usually have peaks 6-12dB above nominal level anyway, so you can even expect a higher occupancy of the AD converter's bits.


Just a sidemark:
My first 1" digital multitrack tape machine, Mitsubishi MX850, had 16bits "only", and I never went into any noise problems, even when in the final mix the noise of 32 channel added up.
In contrary: It had gorgeous sound.

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Most questions answered, many thanks to Curt, Kai and Ramses meanwhile!

I read the ADI-2 FS is equipped with TRS outputs where R is connected to ground with a 100 Ohm resistor.
How is this comparing to ADI-2 Pro FS with its already mono TS output?

I want to connect the analog outs with unbalanced / mono TS jacks.

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Stu,

No TRS outputs on the ADI-2DAC save for the Phone Jack on the Front Panel. 

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-dac.html

You WANT the RME don't you..  smile

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Curt962 wrote:

Stu,

No TRS outputs on the ADI-2DAC save for the Phone Jack on the Front Panel. 

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-dac.html

You WANT the RME don't you..  smile

Curt

Curt, Fieldstu mentionned the ADI-2 FS, not the DAC wink And it does have TRS outputs on the rear panel.
https://www.rme-audio.de/ADI-2-FS.html

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

31 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-21 12:44:06)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Indeed looking the how and what on connecting TS jacks in the TRS jack outputs on the ADI-2 FS.
I see other RME gear which specifically mentions TRS jacks accept TS plugs via special circuitry etc etc, but in the ADI-2 FS manual it seems to state R is connected to ground via 100 Ohm resistor, allowing virtual balanced connection, but for me unsure how this then works with unbalanced TS jacks.

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

fieldstu wrote:

Indeed looking the how and what on connecting TS jacks in the TRS jack outputs on the ADI-2 FS.
I see other RME gear which specifically mentions TRS jacks accept TS plugs via special circuitry etc etc, but in the ADI-2 FS manual it seems to state R is connected to ground via 100 Ohm resistor, allowing virtual balanced connection, but for me unsure how this then works with unbalanced TS jacks.

This "Virtual Balanced" connection can be used with unbalanced TS plugs too.

The benefit of this "virtual-", or "pseudo-balanced" technique is, when connected to a balanced input interference-suppression works like with a real balanced interconnection.
For unbalanced interconnection the "100 Ohm to ground" can simply be ignored, it does not carry any signal.

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

N00b wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Stu,

No TRS outputs on the ADI-2DAC save for the Phone Jack on the Front Panel. 

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-dac.html

You WANT the RME don't you..  smile

Curt

Curt, Fieldstu mentionned the ADI-2 FS, not the DAC wink And it does have TRS outputs on the rear panel.
https://www.rme-audio.de/ADI-2-FS.html

Alas..

I find myself once again just ASSUMING everyone wants a DAC like mine.  smile     It's well documented what happens when we assume.

Thanks for sorting me out Noob

Stu:  Buy the RME.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Curt962 wrote:
N00b wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Stu,

No TRS outputs on the ADI-2DAC save for the Phone Jack on the Front Panel. 

https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-2-dac.html

You WANT the RME don't you..  smile

Curt

Curt, Fieldstu mentionned the ADI-2 FS, not the DAC wink And it does have TRS outputs on the rear panel.
https://www.rme-audio.de/ADI-2-FS.html

Alas..

I find myself once again just ASSUMING everyone wants a DAC like mine.  smile     It's well documented what happens when we assume.

Thanks for sorting me out Noob

Stu:  Buy the RME.

Curt

lol You're the best.

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

35 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-21 21:15:20)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

big_smile i am not going to respond (yet)...

My conclusions (please correct where I am wrong):

I believe ADI-2 FS will work:
1) it accepts unbalanced TS connection on the input, therewith also lifting 6dB on the incoming signal (chapter 5 manual)
2) it supports unbalanced TS connection on the output, sending at max 4dBu to my amp = in the desired max 0-2 V range (chapter 6)
3) (with S/PDIF forwards/backwards to/from Digiface USB with Digiface USB as clock master) it can digitally lock itself for both DA and AD conversion at the same time to the rate of the incoming S/PDIF master clock (chapter 7)
4) the analog volume pot can be taken out of the signal path towards the rear outputs (chapter 6.4)

I believe ADI-2 FS might also not work:
a) soundwise its DA conversion might be similar to what I have in my integrated amp
b) if I ever want to control its output level I need to downstream add a digital volume controller or learn to live with the analog pot with possible channel level misalignment
c) it has no nice display to look at in the dark. (edit: big_smile)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

fieldstu wrote:

big_smile i am not going to respond (yet)...

My conclusions (please correct where I am wrong):

I believe ADI-2 FS will work:
1) it accepts unbalanced TS connection on the input, therewith also lifting 6dB on the incoming signal (chapter 5 manual)
2) it supports unbalanced TS connection on the output, sending at max 4dBu to my amp = in the desired max 0-2 V range (chapter 6)
3) (with S/PDIF forwards/backwards to/from Digiface USB with Digiface USB as clock master) it can digitally lock itself for both DA and AD conversion at the same time to the rate of the incoming S/PDIF master clock (chapter 7)
4) the analog volume pot can be taken out of the signal path towards the rear outputs (chapter 6.4)

I believe ADI-2 FS might also not work:
a) soundwise its DA conversion might be similar to what I have in my integrated amp
b) if I ever want to control its output level I need to downstream add a digital volume controller or learn to live with the analog pot with possible channel level misalignment
c) it has no nice display to look at in the dark.

If you want to fairly compare the ADI-2 FS and the ADI-2 DAC FS, the screen won't be the biggest upgrade. The DSP section of the DAC (and the Pro) is really a huge benefit: 5 bands parametric EQ (room correction...), dynamic loudness (unic and precious feature!!!), crossfeed... and a smart volume handling via digital encoder and 4 hardware reference levels... One of the most powerful preamp available...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

37 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-21 16:46:04)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Stu,

Me again!   I am wholeheartedly in agreement with N00b with respect to the Luxuries afforded the user by the ADI-2DAC or Pro. The PEQ is positively magnificent in it's versatility!  Dynamic Loudness is a feature I adore, and I could Rhapsodize all day about the Plethora of other features!

DA conversion quality?   Stu, Technology does not yet allow better!

RME for You my Friend!  smile

Curt

Edit*  Stu?  Do you see why RME doesn't rely on "Buzzwords" or "Catchphrases" for their Product?   

No need when they have Legions of Satisfied Customers to tell the Story.  Thus, the Product literally Sells itself!

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

38 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-21 21:51:15)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

N00b and Curt, Agreed. smile

I am also convinced that good products sell themselves! And RME products are these. They're well designed, thoughtful, full of features but never bells or whistles, and of very good quality standards.

I do not think I need all of ADI-2 Pro FS's "luxuries" right now, but already I know the remotely controlled output level is really appreciated.

In short the ADI-2 Pro FS allows me future expansions whereas ADI-2 FS does not directly.

39 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-21 21:55:46)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

+1 !!!!

Wise Choice Stu!   Hmmm...it seems now you'll be needing THIS!   The User Manual will become your Dearest Friend. Not as much as Us, but really close!  smile

https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profs_e.pdf


Best Wishes!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

40 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-21 22:04:34)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Haha thanks. I had found this dear friend=manual also smile already reading quick but I'm sure I will dive in further if the Pro does no longer feel like the hypothetical punch above my weight.

Meanwhile I keep bugging with news or questions wink

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Stu,

As our Newest RMEnian, you might enjoy this. smile

Catch Phrases, and Buzzwords?   This is how WE perceive those...  smile

https://youtu.be/Ac7G7xOG2Ag

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

As way too much info smile

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Yes, perhaps, but you can never have too many Pan-Endermic Phase Detractors! big_smile

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

44 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-22 20:55:20)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

You might look in the dedicated core business processes where the product characteristics were carefully reviewed in the light of the countries compliance requirements to assess if the amount of the P-EPD produced was indeed according the intended key performance score.
That said,: Be accurate in your responses, this helps great way in client perceptions!

----------------------------------- ABOVE THIS LINE SHOULD STAY IN THIS THREAD ----------------






----------------------------------- BELOW THIS LINE STARTS A NEW THREAD ----------------
Question: how do you measure your room modes and how do you finetune them with the ADI-2 Pro FS per-size EQ? Just play white noise and record it, look at the frequency spectrum and do the opposite adjustments in the EQ? And then one run per side?


@Admins or moderators, after this the topic should move in a new thread named "How to measure your room acoustics".
Can this be moved into a new thread?

45 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-22 11:30:03)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Hi Stu!

Wow it's early!  (0459 here)

A very popular Room Analysis tool is Room EQ Wizard (REW).   This is a free (donationware) offering that is remarkably powerful, and needs only a Calibrated Mic input to use.  The Mini-DSP U-Mik is ideal!    There's other options of course, but REW is SO widely used...why not? 

REW will use a Sine-Sweep to probe between User Defined Freq endpoints.   With that data, the system can produce a startling array of Graphical Displays.   

Here's a Good Tutorial Video on the Set up, and use of REW.

https://youtu.be/e4uSR3cUUSY

Can you share your Room Dims with us?   A bit of Math can calculate quite accurately your Primary Modes/Nodes in any of the 3 Axiis.

Fun!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

46 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-22 16:47:01)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

I may have a superlux ecm999 or similar around. This would also work I guess.. I see some work coming for my old computer workhorse. I might just miss a mic stand, but can place it on the listening couch.

47 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-22 14:14:57)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

You COULD use your existing Mic, but without CAL data for THAT Mic, we introduce uncertainty into our Test Results.   Not the best method, as Room Analysis has enough of it's own Hair Tearing oddities, without us introducing yet more.  wink

I know!  A UMik will set you back another $100 or so, but it's SO easy to use, and has a downloadable, Serial # specific cal for each Mic.  REW uses this data for Mic FR error correction within the measurement system.

A Mic Stand is advisable.  An Amazon Basics Mic Stand is really nice, and costs about $25.   N00b bought a similar stand in EU for an equally reasonable price.

Let's Do this!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Curt,
I don't know about others following the thread but you have at least talked me into trying Mini-DSP UMik (just ordered it) and REW. Have never done room analysis and/or treatment of any kind before so am looking forward to see how it goes (figured after spending all that money on beautiful new RME's and monitors why not do this last step if experts insist its needed to get the most out of it).
Thanks again for your helpful advice.
Tom

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

That's Wonderful Tom!  Welcome to the discussion!

You're Spot-On with your reasoning.  The Room itself treats our nice gear with all the Tender Loving Care of a Wrecking Ball.  That's rather disheartening, but True given that our Listening Spaces were typically designed to be Lived in...not Sound Good. sad

Promises of Perfection are foolhardy, but I'll bet we can make an audible improvement!! 

Good Times ahead!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

50 (edited by fieldstu 2020-10-22 21:23:01)

Re: ADI-2 FS vs integrated amp DAC

Curt962 wrote:

You COULD use your existing Mic, but without CAL data for THAT Mic, we introduce uncertainty into our Test Results.
Curt

Note the near flat response in the mic specs: http://www.superlux.com.tw/upload/funct … web_en.pdf