1 (edited by d.panagiotidis 2021-02-27 09:30:40)

Topic: firewire and BBF combined?

My future plans is expanding i/o of my BBF through the adat connectivity.
Possible buys would be

https://www.thomann.de/gr/behringer_ada … 0vEALw_wcB

https://www.thomann.de/gr/focusrite_sca … rd_gen.htm

but now that the price of firewire cards is dropping would it be a good idea to use one of these while they are still on the market?

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/fo … ire-pro-40

would that be a waste of time or is there some other issue that I am not thinking of that will soon render these unusable soon?

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

2 (edited by ramses 2021-02-27 10:10:39)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

Do you realize that you are lumping together preamps, AD/DA converters and recording interfaces with the three products mentioned ?

What do you need at all ? You didn't go into this at all in your posting. How many more mic preamps or analog inputs/outputs do you actually need ?

Does it make sense at all to expand the BBF via ADAT or would it be better to sell the BBF at a good price (RME devices achieve quite high resale prices) and buy directly the RME recording interface that provides the needed type and number of I/O ports ? This would be more comfortable to use (only TM FX as control software, all settings can be stored digitally, more compact, higher sample rates possible compared to ADAT).

In your pre-selection, only the Behringer ADA8200 is actually designed to expand your BBF / recording interface with mic preamps and AD/DA converter via ADAT.

All other devices (Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen) are primarily "recording interfaces". Ok, you can also use them to act as preamp/ADDA converter, but everything is much more complicated, because they have to be connected to the PC via Fw/USB like a recording interface and drivers/software have to be installed, so that you can configure the routing of analog channels to ADAT and vice versa on the devices.

Then also think about that there is no official Firewire support anymore for Windows. You also didn't mention the OS here. Windows or Apple ? Can you please add some generic info to your signature, thanks. Makes really too much work to look at your former postings to get a clue about your current setup. Thanks.

In addition, you also need a 2nd TOSLINK connection to bring the clocking from the BBF to the external device. But that's all annoying fiddling.

I would concentrate on pure preamp or AD/DA converter solutions or possibly also on an upgrade of the RME interface.

But coming back to my question, how many ports of what type do you really need more / in total.
Maybe another RME product gives you more advantages.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

ramses wrote:

Do you realize that you are lumping together preamps, AD/DA converters and recording interfaces with the three products mentioned ?

What do you need at all ? You didn't go into this at all in your posting. How many more mic preamps or analog inputs/outputs do you actually need ?

I need 8 more chanels at the moment.
The focusrite 18i20 can double as a sound card for a second computer.
I would think that I can do both jobs with this.

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

4 (edited by hardyroede 2021-02-27 10:45:19)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

If you really just need more Mic / Instrument inputs at the moment, the Focusrite Clarett OctoPre might fit your bill, sound quality is highly regarded, and still quite affordable:

https://m.thomann.de/de/focusrite_clarett_octopre.htm

Has ADAT in, so you can clock it from the Babyface, and seems like you can also use the analog outs of the OctoPre as additional outs for the Babyface via ADAT, nice for separate Speaker B / Artist mixes etc.

As ramses said, if you want to stick with the Babyface as your main USB interface, the extension via ADAT should be simplest possible, so just a Mic Pre with ADAT out, but not a full-fledged second interface, which makes things more complicated.

MADIface(s) Pro, UFX+, MADI Router
Mac mini Intel, iPad Air 2020
ProTools, Hindenburg

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

hardyroede wrote:

If you really just need more Mic / Instrument inputs at the moment, the Focusrite Clarett OctoPre might fit your bill, sound quality is highly regarded, and still quite affordable:

https://m.thomann.de/de/focusrite_clarett_octopre.htm


I have seen that too.

but
I like the idea to have something that can double as a sound card for a the second pc

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

I came from Focusrite .. Mixcontrol is inflexible and a pain to operate.
LED Gain controls were even unprecise on the flagship interface.
Quality and featurewise Focusrite is a big step back compared to RME.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

ramses wrote:

I came from Focusrite .. Mixcontrol is inflexible and a pain to operate.
LED Gain controls were even unprecise on the flagship interface.
Quality and featurewise Focusrite is a big step back compared to RME.

me too.
But I don't care. Main i/o will be on the BBF.
I need the 18i20 (if I get this one) for extension and/or for a second computer

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

8 (edited by ramses 2021-02-27 11:28:54)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

Proposal: better get a used UC for that purpose if it fulfills your channel requirements.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

Yep!

I was about to write that you(@d.panagiotidis) should, better, stick with RME and then I saw Ramses' post about the UC.
Get an RME interface that can be used in Stand-alone mode. This way, you won't miss the excellent drivers and the AD/DA will remain top notch!

Another recommendation is that you can buy another BF Pro FS and the Behringer ADA8200, so that you will, only, need to exchange the Behringer between the two!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

what if I do this via a digiface?

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

Do you mean getting the Behringer ADA8200 and a DF Usb?
Absolutelly! Yes!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

12 (edited by ramses 2021-02-27 12:00:03)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

Possible. Then you fully depend on ADA8200 in terms of AD/DA and are fully limited to single speed (not a real disadvantage, but I wanted to mention it for completeness).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

Another possibility:

Computer A: BBF (clock master)
                      +  +
                       |  |   ADAT / TOSLINK (IN+OUT)
                       |  |
                      +  +
Computer B: UC (clock slave)

Then you can e.g. route analog ports of UC through ADAT to BBF and vice versa.
Galvanic isolation through ADAT optical.
TOSLINK cable may be 10m long according to standard, but with RME I experienced so far that even 15+1m are possible between two RME devices. Use TOSLINK cable of Mutec, they have a very good price/performance ratio and are not to thick/stiff.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

ramses wrote:

Another possibility:

Computer A: BBF (clock master)
                      +  +
                       |  |   ADAT / TOSLINK (IN+OUT)
                       |  |
                      +  +
Computer B: UC (clock slave)

Then you can e.g. route analog ports of UC through ADAT to BBF and vice versa.
Galvanic isolation through ADAT optical.
TOSLINK cable may be 10m long according to standard, but with RME I experienced so far that even 15+1m are possible between two RME devices. Use TOSLINK cable of Mutec, they have a very good price/performance ratio and are not to thick/stiff.


just let me contemplate on this.
(of course I mean that if I use both machines, only the BBF will be on usb. The other one would be (I guess) just powered. I do not know if they HAVE to load the drivers by usb)

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

15 (edited by ramses 2021-02-27 12:18:11)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

In my last example the 2nd machine could be used no matter whether the PC B would be on or off.

Szenario 1 - PC B off
- UC would operate in stand-alone mode and route its analog ports (as you need) to the BBF

Szenario 2 - PC B on
- UC could be administrated by PC B (driver settings, TM FX)
- I assume UC on PC B could be remote administrated by TotalMix Remote on PC A (*) or
   by any remote management software through network
  (*) TotalMix FX and TotalMix Remote can not be used to control the same interface on the same machine

Szenario 3 - disconnect UC from PC B and use it in stand-alone mode close to the BBF.
Just in case the distance is too high (as TOSLINK is limited to max 15m).
But as there are also 20m TOSLINK cables being offerned, you could try also 20m, maybe it still works for single speed.
https://www.thomann.de/de/mutec_optisches_kabel_20m.htm

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

ramses wrote:

Another possibility:

Computer A: BBF (clock master)
                      +  +
                       |  |   ADAT / TOSLINK (IN+OUT)
                       |  |
                      +  +
Computer B: UC (clock slave)

Then you can e.g. route analog ports of UC through ADAT to BBF and vice versa.
Galvanic isolation through ADAT optical.
TOSLINK cable may be 10m long according to standard, but with RME I experienced so far that even 15+1m are possible between two RME devices. Use TOSLINK cable of Mutec, they have a very good price/performance ratio and are not to thick/stiff.


Since I have never hooked two adat machines can you tell me why we need both in/out optical of BBF? I would suppose only in would be enough to send the data from the other device.

Also UC is RME UCX?

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

17 (edited by ramses 2021-02-27 14:24:49)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

> Since I have never hooked two adat machines can you tell me why we need both in/out optical of BBF?

Data transfer in such a TOSLINK cable is unidirectional.

Both devices need to be clock synchronized to avoid crackling audio / audio loss.
The BBF does not support WC (word clock) so we need to send clock from one to the other device through ADAT.

Assumed the BBF is / stays your main interface, it would also be the clock master in such a setup.
The clock master can send clock information only through an outbound digital port.

So the 1st TOSLINK cable we needm to send audio from analog ports (line, instr, mic) of the UC to the BBF.
The 2nd TOSLINK cable we need to send audio from BBF to UC (if this is applicable) but 1st of all to send clock information.

In the RME driver settings you need to set the following
- BBF: clock source: "internal" (so this is the master)
- UC: clock source: "ADAT or optical" (this is the clock slave who gets clocking info through ADAT IN)

In addition to my recommendation I would personally prefer the combination of BBF and UC (not MADIface USB),
because BBF and UC use the same ASIO driver, the Madiface USB uses the newer MADIface USB driver.

As you might know, a DAW can load only one ASIO driver.
So if you would get the BBF and the UC and connect it both to one PC, then Cubase could access both recording interfaces through this one driver.
This would have the major advantage, that you could even
- use all ports of all interfaces (ADAT supports only 8 ch)
- use higher sample rates without loosing ports (with ADAT the amount of channels halfens with double speed (88.2/96)
In such a setup you need
- to connect at least 1 TOSLINK cable between these devices for synchronization
- ensure in the driver settings to use the same ASIO buffer size ...

Because this offers you more options and even access to all analog ports with single, double and quad speed
I would favour the solution with BBF and UC instead of combining BBF with Digiface USB (my personal view).

Well it depends of course also on costs ... So if you have a real fix budget limit that may not be exceeded then please communicate that, then it makes no sense to discuss more expensive solutions even if they are smarter.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

18 (edited by d.panagiotidis 2021-02-27 17:31:55)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

Thank you very much for the info. It was really enlightening.

I don't know if I want to buy a uc. One reason is I have not seen many to be sold, since those who buy them tend to keep them. Also their price does not go down. Another reason is that I do not like what I recently read about rotary encoders and their problems. This kind of let me down because I originally decided upon BBF on the grounds of quality.
Anyway the need for more inputs is not urgent, but they could come in handy. Spending 200 for the behringer is cheap, 400 for the focusrite manageable, more than that...is a novelty, if you take into consideration that this is a hobby, a serious one but still a hobby.
I'll have an eye open for a 2nd hand uc though

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

19 (edited by ramses 2021-02-27 18:05:05)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

> Another reason is that I do not like what I recently read about rotary encoders and their problems

I wouldn't generalize this. I had already many devices without any encoder problems: UFX, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro, ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE.

> Also their price does not go down

Sure of course. Look at the used market prices of other even older interfaces: FF400, FF800, Babyface.
Driver and build quality, long term software support, everything is being flashable in FPGA.
No lame or error prone 3rd party communication chips, all being done in the FPGA.

> Spending 200 for the behringer is cheap

Yes, but then you have still no recording interface for the 2nd PC.

> 400 for the focusrite manageable

I hope you do not mean the firewire version .. Firewire is a "dead horse".

The  Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen costs €459. OK, this is an USB recording interface but, spending so much money for a recording interface with more compromises than advantages and with a lame mixing software, etc.
I personally regard this as a waste of money.

Maybe the best option for you would be to get the ADA8200 1st as extension IF you need more than 4 Mic inputs in total
and then later maybe a used babyface for the 2nd PC at a later point of time.

Otherwise I would still prefer the combination with a UC .. as the combination of both interfaces offers you best quality and flexibility as both are RME recording interfaces with TotalMix FX, TotalMix Remote, DIGICheck, ...

I would only get the ADA8200 if you really need more than 4 Mic inputs.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

20 (edited by d.panagiotidis 2021-02-27 18:36:50)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

ramses wrote:

> 400 for the focusrite manageable

I hope you do not mean the firewire version .. Firewire is a "dead horse".

The  Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd Gen costs €459. OK, this is an USB recording interface but, spending so much money for a recording interface with more compromises than advantages and with a lame mixing software, etc.
I personally regard this as a waste of money.


the 18i20 3rd is now 404 in Greece at my door
https://www.athensproaudio.gr/el/focusr … d-gen.html

OK the firewire is out of the question..

Anyway I do appreciate your concern and advice.
I will think about it.


ps but ....how would you explain so many cases of rotary encoders going wrong? misuse?

Dimitris
Ryzen5 3600XT, Nvidia 1650, Win 10, Cubase 11 pro, BBF ProFS, Rode NT1a, CC121, ADA8200

21 (edited by ramses 2021-02-27 18:50:16)

Re: firewire and BBF combined?

"A lot" is relative and too much is interpreted into it. I would ignore such messages.

I regard it more important that old devices like FF400 and FF800 are still in use today and
that "up to date" firmware and software is still available.
Even with support for ARC USB for devices for which a remote was never planned initially.
Or e.g. TotalMix Remote for remote controlling TM FX over network.
THIS tells a success story ! There is no company who compares to that.

General remark: nobody could pay for 100% homogeneous manufacturing quality anyway, that much should be clear and also RME has no interest in defective HW.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13