1 Topic by gaw0319 (edited by gaw0319 2021-03-23 02:37:37)

  • Registered: 2016-08-11
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Topic: RME UFX+ and a big old analog console: Max number of outputs at 88k?

So, as the title suggests, I generally mix out-of-the-box on an old analog console, and work almost exclusively at 88k. I've been looking to expand the console to a higher channel count, which means I'll need more output channels. However, I'm a bit at a loss as to the best way to expand my UFX+ to a higher channel count- I know things get a little bit more complicated at 88k.

Here's the current situation. I have a UFX+, a Ferrofish A32, and an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R Black that I am using as a set of mastering converters.

  • I'm using Analog In 1-12, and Analog Out 1-8 on the UFX+.

  • I'm using Inputs 1-32 and Outputs 1-32 on the Ferrofish A32, and this is plugged into the UFX+ via optical MADI.

  • The ADI 2 is plugged in via AES. I use these inputs and outputs as mastering inputs and monitor outputs.

(This is unrelated to my current predicament, but I am also plugging in the ADI 2 directly to the PC via USB, and routing the USB's audio signal out of PH 3/4, which effectively makes the ADI 2 a "2 in, 4 out" converter. Outs 1/2 go to my monitor controller, while outs 3/4 go to my mastering chain. The PC sees both the UFX+ and the ADI 2 as an aggregate device, which is great, although I do occasionally get some odd clocking glitches. That's an issue I'll probably ask about on a separate post, though.)

For the sake of clarity, I've attached a crudely drawn MS Paint diagram to show what my current setup looks like:
https://i.imgur.com/yTgQV09.jpg

So, altogether, excluding the ADI 2's inputs and outputs, which are used solely for mastering purposes, I have inputs 1-12 on the UFX+ and inputs 1-32 on the A32, giving me 44 inputs total at 88k. I am using outputs 1-8 on the UFX+ and outputs 1-32 on the A32, giving me 40 outputs total at 88k.

I'm all set with inputs. 44 inputs is plenty. Although, since I will be expanding my console soon, I will ideally need an additional 16-32 output channels, 16 being the bare minimum and 32 being the ideal. I'd like to stay at 88k, if at all possible.

My first thought was ADAT, since those ports are currently unused, but I know that, at 88k, I'd only get an extra 8 channels of outputs. I also know that it is possible to use the headphone outputs on the UFX+, but since these headphone outputs provide an unbalanced stereo signal, I'd need to balance these first (likely just using a pair of Jensen transformers, which is how I balanced the ADI2's PH3/4 outputs), although this is a slightly expensive and non-ideal solution.

The only possibly good solution I can think of is using the UFX's coaxial inputs/outputs as MADI inputs/outputs rather than word clock. In the UFX+ manual, it explains that these coax jacks can be used for MADI, although in this case, I won't be able to use them for word clock, so I'm not sure if this is an ideal solution.

So, considering all this:

  • Will the UFX+ allow me to use both optical and coax MADI connections at the same time?

  • If using both MADI connections is simultaneously possible, will I be at any disadvantage by not using word clock connections between my UFX+ and my A32 converts? Is the word clock connection unnecessary?

Thanks for the help, it's appreciated!

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-03-23 06:35:23)

  • ramses
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Re: RME UFX+ and a big old analog console: Max number of outputs at 88k?

EDIT1: regarding audio drops, how are you digital monitors clocked / connected ?

Hi, nice combination of devices.

Short answers to your last two questions
> Will the UFX+ allow me to use both optical and coax MADI connections at the same time?
Yes but you get only the half amount of channels through optical / coax, its still only 1 MADI bus.
> If using both MADI connections is simultaneously possible, will I be at any disadvantage by not using word clock
> connections between my UFX+ and my A32 converts? Is the word clock connection unnecessary?
You can clock through MADI.

Here some thoughts about your setup, some checks and changes

Question to the drawing: you connect UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE through AES IN and OUT, but the AES output of the ADI-2 Pro is already in use for monitors. So I assume you have only one AES connection from UFX+ to ADI-2 Pro ?

> I am also plugging in the ADI 2 directly to the PC via USB, and routing the USB's audio signal out of PH 3/4,
> which effectively makes the ADI 2 a "2 in, 4 out" converter.
> The PC sees both the UFX+ and the ADI 2 as an aggregate device, which is great, although I do occasionally
> get some odd clocking glitches.

Windows doesn't know about "aggregate devices". When you load the MADIface ASIO driver with your DAW, then you can see the channels of both devices by "pure occasion", because the MADIface driver supports both devices, UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE.

It's possible to operate UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro through their own USB ports, but this has two strong requirements: the two devices need
a) to be clock synched (check whether ADI-2 Pro has clock source set to AES !!!)
and
b) to use the same ASIO buffersize (check in driver settings whether ASIO buffer size of the two devices is equal)

If you are getting audio drops from time to time then you should check clocking and whether the devices use the same ASIO buffersize. I assume that the UFX+ acts as clock master and the ADI-2 Pro is clock slave, a couple of checks:
Check in the MADIface driver settings
- whether UFX+ is clock master (clock source = "internal")
- whether UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro use the same ASIO buffer size
Check ADI-2 Pro's "State Overview", whether clock source is set to AES.

EDIT1: and your monitors are also properly clocked to AES source ?

In which situation do the audio drops occurr exactly ? Which application ? Which driver is in use ?
Are you then playing through PC---->USB3---->UFX+---->AES----->ADI-2 Pro---->AES----->Monitors?
Or are you playing audio through PC---->USB2----->ADI-2 Pro---->AES----->Monitors?

In my setup I have also both devices connected through USB, but I use USB2/ADI-2 Pro only for flashing the unit.
I am running all audio exclusively through USB3/UFX+ !!! So the my settings for the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE are:
  Setup -> Options -> Device Mode/DSD  -> Basic Mode  : "AD/DA"
  Setup -> Options -> Clock                     -> Clock Source: "AES"

I would try this, whether it brings some more stability to your setup.
To be really sure that there is no impact from USB I would unplug USB from the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE.

If you have still audio drops then there can be other reasons, but I would propose to try this setup first
- with only UFX+ connected through USB
- with the proposed ADI-2 Pro settings to select Basic Mode AD/DA and to use AES as clock source.
Question: which PC do you have ? CPU ? DRAM ? Mainboard ? Which Windows 10 version, 20H2 ?
To which USB ports do you connect the devices? Ports from chipset or a 3rd party USB chip in the mainboard?

Word Clock cabling between UFX+ and Ferrofish A32 can be used but is IMHO optional.
Is there a special reason why you choosed word clock for this ?
IMHO the A32 could get the clock through MADI (similar to ADI-2 Pro getting clock through AES).

You can use the BNC connectors of the UFX+, but this is not a 2nd MADI bus. At double speed you get:
- either 32ch through "Optical" or "Coaxial"
- or  16/16ch (optical/coaxial) in "split" mode.
It can also act as failover between optical and bnc with a fast failover within 1 sample, see also manual ch 21.3:
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_ufxplus_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/fface_ufxplus_e.pdf

If you need a 2nd MADI bus then there are basically three options
a) add a 2nd UFX+, clock synch both
b) if you do not need those channels at the same time or a certain mix, then you might evaluate RME MADI router
c) switch to a different product, if a PCIe solution is possible use e.g. HDSPe MADI FX

to a)
Advantage: 2nd UFX+ can act as spare and additional DURec backup
Disadvantages:
- might put much stress to your system as you use two USB3 ports where all channels are permanently being transmitted
- in your case even with double speed
- you can't route channels across the two devices

to b) much flexibility, please read product description
Note: this solution you can't use if you want to be able to access all ports from A32 and the 2nd MADI device.
Check with RME, but I think in your scenario it might be possible to use it for these two purposes:
- connect A32 to Port A IN
- connect additional MADI device to Port B IN
- connect UFX+ to Port C OUT
Now it should be possible to route either A or B to C
or even to select channels from A and B as you need and merge it together to a new composition of channels to C (UFX+)

to c) HDSPe MADI FX is a very nice and advanced card
- supports three MADI busses (3rd bus can also be switched to optical by buying a different/optional daughter card)
- the only RME PCIe card with FX chip !
- has an optimized ASIO driver which allocates CPU/driver resources only for groups of 8 channels, so that not all channels need to be transferred though PCIe bus and being processed permanently
- has an analog port for phones, in case you need it
- has an AES port to connect your ADI-2 Pro FS R BE !!!
- has also MIDI if needed ...
In this scenario you could e.g. connect your UFX+ standalone to the 3rd MADI bus and use it as backup recording for up to 32 channels at double speed.

Hope this answers all of your questions.

P.S.: reload browser, see addition "EDIT1"

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2016-08-11
  • Posts: 12

Re: RME UFX+ and a big old analog console: Max number of outputs at 88k?

Thank you much for the detailed reply ramses! This is a huge help, and answers a lot of questions, thankfully.

In regards to the extra output channels: Good to know about the UFX+ only having 1 MADI bus. This means that, unless I want to buy some new devices, I will probably have to do an additional 8 channels via ADAT, and then balance the 4 headphone outputs from the front of the UFX. This will give me an additional 12 outs, which is still definitely helpful.
The HDSPe MADI FX looks great, although being that my audio PC is quite a small ITX build with only a single PCIe slot currently being taken by the GPU, that may have to be a consideration for the future. However, the MADIface XT might be a good option, right? This looks to have two MADI busses (or maybe three), meaning, 64+ MADI channels at 88k. This would definitely be enough channels for me.


In regards to the ADI-2 and the UFX+:
This is a lot of great information here. To clarify, here is the setup:
Connections:

  • Both AES ins and outs are connected from the UFX+ to the ADI-2.

  • The USB from the UFX+ is plugged into the PC.

  • The USB from the ADI-2 is plugged into the PC as well. The DAW (Reaper, in this case) is able to see and use both with no problems. In the DAW, the outputs are reported as Analog 1(1), Analog 2(1), etc, which is the UFX, and Analog 1(2), Analog 2(2), which is the ADI-2.

ADI-2 Settings:

  • Device Mode - Basic mode is set to AD/DA.

  • Clock Source is set to AES.

  • IO Settings, Main Output 1/2, AD/DA Source: AES

  • IO Settings, Phones Out 3/4, AD/DA Source: USB

UFX+ Settings:

  • The AES outputs are set as the main outs for the TotalMix, since they are my monitor outputs.

  • Clock Source is set to Internal.

  • AES Format is set to Professional.


Using this setup, I use the main output 1/2 on the ADI-2 (the analog outputs on the rear) to go directly to my monitor controller. In TotalMix, these outputs are labeled as AES. Then, on the ADI-2, the phones output 3/4 I use to feed an analog mastering chain, which I then run back into the analog inputs. These are not visible in TotalMix, but are indeed visible in the DAW, labeled as "Analog 1/2(2)".
This way, the ADI-2 is doing three mastering duties:
1. Analog outs to monitors, via main output 1/2, using the UFX's AES connection.
2. Analog outs to the mastering rack via phones out 3/4, using the direct USB connection to the computer and selecting Analog 1/2(2) in the DAW as the output
3. Analog inputs to record the return signal from the mastering rack

It's great, actually, that one small half-rack device can give me access to these excellent converters doing three tasks at once: Monitoring, DA to mastering chain, and AD from mastering chain. It saves me a tremendous amount of space and money, and really shows how well the ADI-2 can multi-task. It is, IMO, the perfect mastering converter for that reason. At first, I tried to plug in the optical ADAT plugs along with the AES plugs at the same time, and tried to tell the converter "Phones 3/4 Source SPDIF", but this did not work, so using this USB method, it seems to work. I am not sure if RME designed the product to be used in this way, but either way, it's an excellent device.

Some other details: The two devices have their own separate tabs on the Fireface Settings application. When I change the sample rate on the UFX, the ADI-2 also follows the sample rate change automatically.
When I change buffer sizes on the UFX+ settings, the ADI-2 will automatically follow this as well, and vice-versa, if I change buffer sizes on the ADI-2, the UFX will follow this automatically. Sometimes, the change does not visually appear on the settings box until I X-out of the Fireface Settings and re-open it, and in this case, it shows that the buffer size on the other device has updated. So, overall, it seems like the two devices synchronize nicely.

Although, unfortunately, there still are some occasional issues. They are random, and a bit difficult to predict. Sometimes, this problem will just appear randomly even if there has been no recent sample rate or buffer size change, and sometimes (slightly more frequently) it appears after changing projects with different sample rates or buffer sizes. If, for example, I switch from a 48k project to an 88k project, sometimes playback will have many clicks and digital distortion, very obviously a clocking issue. It is more noticeable at lower buffer sizes. When I change the buffer size, even if going lower, it will usually clear up. So, for example, if the problem happens at buffer 256, switching to 128 will usually clear it up, or going to 128, pressing play, stopping, going back to 256, pressing play, and it will be clear again. It is like I have to 'reset' the device by switching buffer size back and forth.

It happens so randomly that it has been very difficult to diagnose, but does seem to be correlated with a change in sample rates, since it happens more frequently then. It is not a huge problem, and usually is a fairly easy thing to fix just by switching buffer sizes back and forth, but it'd be a nice thing to eventually find a solution to.

Thank you again for the help!

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-03-23 09:39:28)

  • ramses
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Re: RME UFX+ and a big old analog console: Max number of outputs at 88k?

MADIface XT has 3 MADI busses like the HDSPe MADI FX, also AES (via breakout cable).
Quickest feature overview through archive site: https://archiv.rme-audio.de/en/products/madiface_xt.php

Or check my Excel
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … B-MADIfac/
Direct link to Excel: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … 0-08-xlsx/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13