Topic: High end PC configuration

Hi everybody!

I've been using pretty much all well known sound card brand, until a few months ago, when sold everything and bought antelope interfaces. Great gear, but stability/drivers issues, and in the end i don't use the plugins when recording.

So i decided to change for RME sound cards, because i need reliable gear, not too much plugins and flexibility. I think that the 802 or UFX 2 will be the perfect match, and a babyface for nomad production.

Now, here is my question regarding PC configuration. My newer computer can be worst than my older one on certain projects (glitchs, pop etc...) even with few tracks, even if i have enough RAM (64gb), i7 8700k (bought a i9 9900KF to upgrade but i don't hope too much though). In the end, I know that just a bad USB cable can ruin a whole high end configuration and make it slow.

So i'm hoping there is some expert here to give me advices about PC configuration : processor (threadtrippers?), memory (what should i care for? latency? Mhz?), motherboard etc...

What would be the best and fastest computer i could get for my semi pro setup? I was planning to spend at least 3000€ until 4000€ (3500$ to 5000$), to have the computer which will last for a while?

Thanks!

2 (edited by ramses 2021-05-17 12:09:47)

Re: High end PC configuration

Hi Sam.

sam235 wrote:

I've been using pretty much all well known sound card brand, until a few months ago, when sold everything and bought antelope interfaces. Great gear, but stability/drivers issues, and in the end i don't use the plugins when recording.

Yes, I have also read or heard something like that in some reviews (Youtube..).

sam235 wrote:

So i decided to change for RME sound cards, because i need reliable gear, not too much plugins and flexibility. I think that the 802 or UFX 2 will be the perfect match, and a babyface for nomad production.

I think this is a good decision, because you will get the much better overall package at a reasonable, fair price with excellent support. I would even consider an UFX+, because it is not that much more expensive compared to an UFX II, but it offers to you the advantage:

  • to have two different connection types towards the PC, USB3 and Thunderbolt (even USB2 then you can use the interface as 30ch interface like the UFX II in cases where needed for whatever reason). Should you have any issues, you have a plan B and there is nothing better than Thunderbolt (external PCIe) when it comes to lowest possible RTL (round trip latencies between recording interface and PC)

  • not having a decreasing number of ADAT channels available when using higher sample rates (double speed and higher) if you use higher sample rates you do not have the typical degradation in the number of channels over ADAT by channel multiplexing for double (and quad) speed (sample rate).

  • to use MADI channels for e.g. loopback recording instead of using "precious" ADAT and AES channels for it, giving you more options / flexibility

  • to expand your setup using MADI including very useful features like "MIDI over MADI" which saves MIDI cabling and supports much longer distances.

  • to have no length restriction with MADI compared to ADAT (10m max for TOSLINK cable according to standard), MADI cabling can be ring structure with up to 2km long multimode fibers between each of the - usually up to - 8 devices on a MADI bus

Here one example from my blog articles / reviews, how nicely you can expand with MADI:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … XTC-DE-EN/

MADI also offers the convenient possibility to remotely control certain RME preamps via TotalMix FX using MIDI over MADI, allowing you to set, store and recall gain, phase, phantom power, etc. via TM FX. This very pleasant comfort is currently possible with the Octamic XTC and RME has promised to implement it in the 12Mic as well, but this will take some time.

sam235 wrote:

Now, here is my question regarding PC configuration. My newer computer can be worst than my older one on certain projects (glitchs, pop etc...) even with few tracks, even if i have enough RAM (64gb), i7 8700k (bought a i9 9900KF to upgrade but i don't hope too much though). In the end, I know that just a bad USB cable can ruin a whole high end configuration and make it slow.

So i'm hoping there is some expert here to give me advices about PC configuration : processor (threadtrippers?), memory (what should i care for? latency? Mhz?), motherboard etc...

What would be the best and fastest computer i could get for my semi pro setup? I was planning to spend at least 3000€ until 4000€ (3500$ to 5000$), to have the computer which will last for a while?

My recommendation is to get a turnkey system from a company that specializes in building reliable audio workstations with components that are well matched and best suited for the intended use. This would include clarifying what would be most appropriate for your applications. AMD or Intel. More cores or higher single thread performance.
For CPU hungry VST/VSTi or in cases where people use a lot of inserts per track a higher CPU cloak / single thread performance can be an advantage. My personal gut feeling regarding this is not more than 12-16 cores and a base clock of around 3.5 GHz, but this is only a rough estimation and needs to be validated by real application tests using the DAW / applications that you intend to use.

The whole thing can get arbitrarily complicated and should better be done by a company that knows about it and has already tested many HW and driver combinations and found out a good tuning.

Important topics:

  • identify the best CPU for the job

  • the choice of CPU / CPU manufacturer and the number of cores also to optimize for the desired DAW, as many (most?) DAWs do not scale well over a high number of CPU cores

  • to be clarified whether the AVX512 instruction set is being used by certain DAWs which mighr speed up things

  • find a good motherboard / BIOS / chipset combination

  • find components with drivers that cause the lowest possible DPC latencies

As Windows and MacOS are no real-time operating systems it's very important to use well written drivers, as such low level routines can't be interrupted by the process scheduler. Only the driver itself can detach itself from a CPU core. If it's not programmed well, then the core becomes utilized too long for this driver. If there is an audio related process waiting for this core to be freed, then it can happen that you get audio loss, especially at lower ASIO buffersizes.

Therefore the hardware / driver selection is very important for a DAW with near-realtime application demands.

Last recently so much new hardware and new chipsets showed up, so that its not easy to give good/proven tips.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 (edited by Lerian 2021-05-17 12:54:35)

Re: High end PC configuration

At the moment AMD chips are in the lead in performance. I agree with ramses regarding the UFX+ and thunderbolt connection option, and now there are a few AMD motherboards with TB3/4 connections with more coming up in the future. 4k euro should be more than enough to get into that. For storage SSDs i would recommend XPG Gammix S11 - they are very fast and very affordable ($240 a 2tb drive).

That being said, i would wait a bit for AMD to launch the successor of the X570 chipset with thunderbolt built in. They will also laounch the new Threadripper 5000 CPU series in august, so keep an eye out for that.

Now TB4 motherboards are based on the B550 chipset which is also very good chipset but it lacks the latest bells and whistles like more than 2 PCIe 4 lanes, and other things. That being said, the new Asus ProART B550-Creator based on B550 is quite a nice mobo.

If you can wait, then the new threadripper 5000 cpus might be a better choice.

4 (edited by ramses 2021-05-17 12:23:00)

Re: High end PC configuration

Lerian, do you know how DPC latencies are on different AMD setups using Ryzen 3 ?

I would wait for the next generation of "full" AMD chipsets with passive cooling if possible. The B550 is an alternative to the X570, but it has some limitations compared to the X570. If I remember right the B550 itself has no PCIe 4.0 lanes (you get only those from CPU) and limited amount of USB ports in the chipset.

The only 4 boards with passive cooled X570 have astronomical prices between €361 - 899
https://geizhals.de/?cat=mbam4&xf=3 … e+L%FCfter

IMHO something is wrong with the prices / features on these consumer/gamer boards. For an excellent Supermicro Server Mainboard for Intel Xeon I payed 5y ago €280. I notice since years that these gamer products have a ridiculously high price.

EDIT: and I fully agree with you, thunderbolt should be in the chipset.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5 (edited by Lerian 2021-05-17 12:55:13)

Re: High end PC configuration

ramses wrote:

If I remember right the B550 itself has no PCIe 4.0 lanes (you get only those from CPU) and limited amount of USB ports in the chipset.

They do have one PCIE4 lane.

Just edited my post. I would wait for the new threadripper 5000 cpus, maybe a new chipset will arrive too in august, although they are still compatible with the TRX40 motherboards.

6 (edited by ramses 2021-05-17 12:37:04)

Re: High end PC configuration

Lerian wrote:
ramses wrote:

If I remember right the B550 itself has no PCIe 4.0 lanes (you get only those from CPU) and limited amount of USB ports in the chipset.

They do have one PCIE4 lane.

Just edited my post. I would wait for the new threadripper 5000 cpus, maybe a new chipset will arrive too in august.

The question is whether a DAW can make use of that many cores. Currently I am sitting it out and are waiting for all the nice features to arrive (Thunderbolt 4, USB4, DDR5, ECC, 10 Gbit, ...) on one board and then I hope its not an overpriced "bling bling" product.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: High end PC configuration

ramses wrote:
Lerian wrote:
ramses wrote:

If I remember right the B550 itself has no PCIe 4.0 lanes (you get only those from CPU) and limited amount of USB ports in the chipset.

They do have one PCIE4 lane.

Just edited my post. I would wait for the new threadripper 5000 cpus, maybe a new chipset will arrive too in august.

The question is whether a DAW can make use of that many cores. Currently I am sitting it out and are waiting for all the nice features to arrive (Thunderbolt 4, USB4, DDR5, ECC, 10 Gbit, ...) on one board and then I hope its not an overpriced "bling bling" product.

I use Reaper and it sure can handle any number of cores. I'm sure all daws will, if not already can handle that many cores. The latency is not a problem with the latest 5xxx cpus.

8 (edited by ramses 2021-05-17 13:04:03)

Re: High end PC configuration

Lerian wrote:
ramses wrote:
Lerian wrote:

They do have one PCIE4 lane.

Just edited my post. I would wait for the new threadripper 5000 cpus, maybe a new chipset will arrive too in august.

The question is whether a DAW can make use of that many cores. Currently I am sitting it out and are waiting for all the nice features to arrive (Thunderbolt 4, USB4, DDR5, ECC, 10 Gbit, ...) on one board and then I hope its not an overpriced "bling bling" product.

I use Reaper and it sure can handle any number of cores. I'm sure all daws will, if not already can handle that many cores. The latency is not a problem with the latest 5xxx cpus.

Not talking about CPU architecture/performance , I know that the Ryzen 3 have an excellent Single Thread performance.
Driver quality is also very important for low DPC latencies.
I know from thread of 2y ago, that there were issues in Cubase to scale with CPUs which have more than ~12 cores if I remember right
Another issue was the limitation of MMCSS in Windows 10. Microsoft deceided that only Windows 10 Server should get again an unlimited number of threads possible that can be priotized by MMCSS.
Steinberg had then contact with Microsoft under NDA .. and if you were a customer which has an Intel or AMD CPU with more than (I dont remember exactly) 12 or 14 or 16 cores, then certain (secret/under NDS) Registry settings were required for Windows 10.
Later they told they would reprogram something in Cubase to make this "hack" / finetuning under M$ NDA not required anymore.

For me this sounded like Bullshit Bingo per excellance ...

So ... maybe with Reaper you have the luck that it scales well.
Logic (Apple) - as far as I heard - puts some higher load on the 1st CPU thread and this can limit performance. Not sure whether this is still the case.
Cubase .. tbh .. didn't track this since months ..

This is what I mean and what I am personally kind of worried about.

Therefore I personally will contact a company which has (hopefully) more concrete knowledge in that area, to get an advanced system where all components perfectly fit together.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

9 (edited by Lerian 2021-05-17 13:15:52)

Re: High end PC configuration

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXUWghwpPXs

Also there was a cubase benchmark lately with older threadripper cpus, and they were top performers on all cores.

https://pcaudiolabs.com/amd-ryzen-threa … 61a1b298a0

Re: High end PC configuration

Cool thanks, will have a look later.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

11 (edited by ramses 2021-05-17 14:46:28)

Re: High end PC configuration

Lerian wrote:

Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXUWghwpPXs

At about 02:52: "one negative thing, there were reports that running Reaper the 32 and 64 core threadripper CPUs performed almost identical possibly due to lack of software optimization in Reaper.

And in the picture you see a note: 3990X: in Reaper only 64 or the 128 cores could be addresses, so it performed like an 3970X.

You said, that there were no scalability issues in reaper in terms of core count, but here are already two mentioned. Maybe not a big deal as the performance might be high enough, but reaper also doesn't seem to be able to utilize all available cores.

But again, CPU performance and single thread performance is one thing. But to be able to have a very small RTL, you need also be able to work with low ASIO buffersizes and for that low DPC latencies are important as well. Ok, if you have so many cores, maybe the low level routines might also distribute better across many cores .. but before spending much money on a machine, then I will definitively involve a company which has the experience and who did a lot of testing in that area.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 (edited by Lerian 2021-05-17 18:04:53)

Re: High end PC configuration

That article was written in feb. 2020, windows didn't had written the code for all the cores to be used - as also stated in the article - you need windows pro for workstations to be able to use more than 64 threads, which the tester didn't used. Reaper devs are the fastest in the space to address these issues, but as long as the OS can't access the cores properly, reaper can't either.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15483/am … x-review/3

About the DPC latency, that was a problem in zen2 cpus, since zen3 that is no longer a problem due to different cpu architecture.

13 (edited by ramses 2021-05-17 18:21:28)

Re: High end PC configuration

Lerian wrote:

That article was written in feb. 2020, windows didn't had written the code for all the cores to be used - as also stated in the article - you need windows pro for workstations to be able to use more than 64 threads, which the tester didn't used. Reaper devs are the fastest in the space to address these issues, but as long as the OS can't access the cores properly, reaper can't either.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15483/am … x-review/3

About the DPC latency, that was a problem in zen2 cpus, since zen3 that is no longer a problem due to different cpu architecture.

Good, thanks for pointing this out !! I didn't know, just wanted to be sure, that nothing has been overlooked.
Thanks for this information Lerian.

With Thunderbolt, ECC RAM and 10G Ethernet I think I couldn't resist wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: High end PC configuration

Wow, i did not expected so much information. Thank you guys. I already extracted some really interesting stuff from your advices, it helped me understand some things, and other i need to figure out.
You are both right, in my quest of low latency, i can't skip the thunderbolt option. So, yes i will choose a soundcard with thunderbolt, yes i will keep up to date and maybe wait a bit to see the next steps in technology (thunderbolt 4, ddr5...)
And your links Lerian, reminded me that i already new the brand "pcaudiolabs", and indeed Ramses i will ask them advice and quote, that the best thing to do.
Thanks again to both of you, i'll educate myself with the links you posted! smile

15 (edited by Lerian 2021-05-18 13:28:39)

Re: High end PC configuration

sam, if you are after the LOWEST latency, i don't think thunderbolt beats a native PCIe card that connects directly to the bus. Even thunderbolt have to go through some kind of bridge, so i would go for PCIe for lowest latency. I never tried but I think you can get a pcie that you can connect to a fireface uc for more connectivity options so you get better latency than UFX+ at a fraction of the price.

16 (edited by ramses 2021-05-18 19:27:04)

Re: High end PC configuration

Lerian wrote:

sam, if you are after the LOWEST latency, i don't think thunderbolt beats a native PCIe card that connects directly to the bus. Even thunderbolt have to go through some kind of bridge, so i would go for PCIe for lowest latency. I never tried but I think you can get a pcie that you can connect to a fireface uc for more connectivity options so you get better latency than UFX+ at a fraction of the price.

I come to other conclusions, Lerian, look:
Example Calculations for RTL (Round Trip Latency)
- for a single recording interface:
  RTL = ASIO input latency + output latency
- for PCIe based interface + preamp through ADAT:
  RTL = ASIO input latency + output latency + converter latency for A/D and D/A
Please note: according to RME the latency for the routing through recording interface or ADAT is not significant in this calculation.

Case 1: UFX+ (Thunderbolt):  RTL = 1,297 + 1,315 = 2,612 ms
Case 2: UFX+ (USB3):             RTL = 1,043 + 2,018 = 3,061 ms
Case 3: RayDAT--ADAT--XTC:   RTL = 0,771 + 1,519 + 0,28 + 0,63 = 3,2ms
Case 4: RayDAT--ADAT--UC:    RTL = 0,771 + 1,519 + 0,98 + 0,63 = 3,9ms

Result: as you can see the RTL with an UFX+ - no matter whether using Thunderbolt or USB3 - is lower compared to a PCIe based recording interface and interface or preamp connected via ADAT.

Additionally you have the advanced features and possibilities of the flagship interface UFX+ and the possibility to expand through MADI:  USB2/3 / TB, FX Chip, Advanced DURec with RTC, Autoset, MADI, MIDI over MADI, WC, quality of the analog section incl. the preamps and instrument inputs. The bottom line is that this is the better unit with increased flexibility, availability and lower latency.

Another advantage of the UFX+ is, that the number of analog ports is constant, no matter which sample rate you use.
With an ADAT based solution you can only route 8 channels of the UC through ADAT.
And with double (and quad) you loose many channels by port multiplexing (8 -> 4 -> 2).

With the UFX+ you have a constant number of excellent preamps and analog ports (overhauled analog section compared to UFX+) and can use the digital ports like ADAT1, ADAT2, AES for other special purposes and still expand the installation by making use of MADI. Or you use free MADI ports for special routing tasks in the area of loopback recording.

The clear winner is here the RME UFX+, cost and feature wise
UFX+                                                              = €2198
RayDAT + WCM + UC = €585 + €109 + €845 = €1539

With the UFX+ you can use all of its ports at any sample rate. With the combination of RayDAT and UC you can only use the 8 channels routed through ADAT. And as the UC has only 1 ADAT port, thats more or less all (ok plus coaxial SPDIF, but this is not that much more)

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/2343-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-v2-jpg/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: High end PC configuration

Hey guys. So the short answer is : yes super low latency (i'm a guitarist so i need realtime recording in small as in big sessions)

And the other thing that made me think about changing my computer, is that even at 2048 samples with both antelope soundcards, i still have pops and cracks in reasonably big sessions (i mean about 25 tracks, 2 or 3 instances of kontakt, up to 7/8 instances of serum and audio tracks).

I already bought a dedicated PCI usb 3 card to connect my gear, but i see no noticeable improvement. I'll keep thinking about all of this, thanks!

18 (edited by Lerian 2021-05-18 23:45:55)

Re: High end PC configuration

USB3 have no improvement over USB2 regarding latency. The only thing it can bo better is more bandwidth. If you only do 1 or two guitar recordings plus 2 mics at the time and don't need the extra i/o then you can get away with the babyface pro fs. I can have quite big projects with 512 samples on a 5yo computer (i5 6600k). On recording it can go as low as 2.99 ms at 96khz (3.15 at 48khz), i don't think you can get better than this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlkTpZL4kcg

Just tested 24/48 at 64samples i have 3.9ms RTL with the older babyface pro (not fs). No drops or glitches with a comp, eq, limiter and soothe2 on the master. The daw i use is reaper. Even UFX+ on TB, according to ramses, have 4ms at 64samples - probably tested on a similar computer as mine (2015).

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/

19 (edited by ramses 2021-05-19 13:55:24)

Re: High end PC configuration

Lerian, Sam wanted to have two devices anyway, if I understood him correctly in Posting #1: an 802 or UFX II and a BBF Pro FS for mobile use. Therefore it is not necessary to discuss "UFX+ vs BBF", whether a Babyface Pro FS would be sufficient.

I brought the UFX+ into play because Sam wrote in the initial post that he would reach for a UFX II and in my opinion you should rather go for the UFX+ if you are willing to spend so much money for a recording interface anyway and if you are looking for lowest RTL (round trip latencies), which you will get by thunderbolt in the 1st place, but also by using USB3.

Allow me one comment to the RTL comparison between UFX+ and BBF Pro in post #18: please keep the same conditions, same ASIO buffersize and also same sample rate. The converter latency is more than half lower at 96 kHz compared to 44.1 kHz. Makes no sense to mix this. I used 44.1 kHz because most people are using it and this  is the "worst case" in terms of converter latency. And tbh, the RTL of all RME devices - no matter whether via USB or PCIe - are so low, the differences are not that significant. Everything under 10ms is very nicely when working with virtual instruments and for simple recording purposes the RTL doesn't matter at all. There you use max ASIO buffersizes anyway for a very "save" recording.
I think features and possibilities, a variety of I/O ports and different possibilities to connect to a PC, this is more important.

If I could add one more suggestion. Depending on what Sam means by mobility, which doesn't necessarily has to go hand in hand with a small form factor, you could just as easily fit a UFX+ into a Thomann compact rack that is quite compact, because it isn't so deep (only ~23cm). By this you could perhaps save the cost for a BBF Pro FS or buy it at a later time, then you have not so high cost at once.

Sam, I assume you will have passive cooling. In this case it's recommended for a better air-flow to take 1 rack unit more for the UFX+. This is the 2 RU version of my rack: https://www.thomann.de/de/thon_rack_2he … ompact.htm

Some additional informations:

1. UFX+ (as well as UFX II) allow you to choose the same minimum ASIO buffersize of 32 samples like the PCIe cards, no matter whether you use USB2 (UFX II, UFX+), USB3 or Thunderbolt. The BBF Pro FS uses the old USB driver which uses another USB transfer mode, where 48 samples is the minimum.

2. When choosing a recording interface like UFX II and UFX+ with MADIface driver then you might also have another advantage. The application using the MADIface ASIO driver can directly access all devices which are supported by this driver (UFX+/UFX II, MADIface XT/Pro/USB, OctaMic XTC, ADI-2 Pro/AE/FS/DAC, Digiface USB). You only need to take card, that those devices are clock synchronized and use the same ASIO buffersize.
A combination that makes sense is e.g. UFX+ and ADI-2 DAC/Pro. In my setup the ADI-2 Pro FS is being clock synched by either AES or ADAT.
Both devices (UFX+ and ADI-2Pro) are connected through USB, the DAW/application has direct access to all ports of all devices and I do not have to route any channels through ADAT etc to be able to access them.
The AES (or ADAT) connection I need of course to send sound from UFX+ to the ADI-2 Pro, where Monitors / Phones are connected to.
To sum up, for my setup I identified it as an advantage to use devices, which use the same ASIO driver.

3. Also for Sam it could also be interesting at a later point in time, to add such an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE to the environment, to get those nice features of this device for monitors and phones. At least to plan, to have the option for that whenever he thinks its about the time to add the ADI-2 Pro to the setup.
Besides of quality you have also advantages from handling perspective.
The ADI-2 Pro also acts in my setup like a monitoring controller to limit the volume by having a real encoder for the volume and a feature for a slow ramp-up of volume when plugging phones or switching between monitors/phones (which can very nicely be done by using the key remapping feature of the ADI-2* to map this function to one of the front buttons.
See also this blog article about the integration of ADI-2 Pro into a recording environment:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13