• Registered: 2012-05-22
  • Posts: 4

Topic: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi there,
I have purchased a 12mic for what I hoped was a very simple choir recording setup : 12mic on stage via AVB to either Mac Pro Ethernet or Macbook Pro with Thunderbolt 2 Ethernet adapter (Big Sur and Mojave).
For some reason there is no RME AVDECC Controller for the 12mic - and yet there is one for the Digiface AVB - making that appear easily as an audio device. The manual says third party AVDECC Controller software should be used instead.
A search pointed me towards Apple's own AVB util via Terminal, and Hive. 
Both find the 12mic - but that's about it - nothing can be routed - everything is greyed out as 'not connectable' and the unit does not show up in Audio Devices.
The 12mic also shows up in Audio Midi Setup under 'Networked Devices' - but if I try to tick the box next to it the unit disappears and the web based connection to the 12mic is interrupted.

Most video's I found about the 12mic show usage in combination with Digiface AVB or UFX over MADI - I have yet to find one showing the 12mic in a simple standalone AVB working setup - which should be possible according to the documentation.
I would prefer not to have to buy a Digiface AVB just to get the 12mic doing that.
Appreciate any help - if this has been covered before my apologies - I haven't found a solution browsing the forum...

Thanks

Stef

  • Marc S
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  • Registered: 2019-06-11
  • Posts: 110

Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi Stef,

the post you've found is absolutely the right path. Please note that we don't support native Mac OS officially at the moment, as their implementation is not fully Milan compliant and there are incompatibilities.
However, Mac OS AVB support is constantly improving and the Milan working group is well aware of the situation. I'm sure it will get better pretty soon.

As a rule of thumb: The newer the Mac the better. My 2013 Mac Book Pro needs constant encouragement and doesn't handle more than two 8 channel streams gracefully. On the other hand, on a current M1 model, we've seen up to 64 channels in and out working flawlessly.

Some pointers:
Mac OS sometimes has problems to agree on the PTP Grandmaster. You can observe this in Hive (Grandmasters are listed in the devices table).
If that happens, the easiest thing is to kill coreaudiod using the activity monitor. When it comes back (that happens automatically) the devices will agree on the same Grandmaster.

Then make sure both devices are set to the same stream formats, that can be set up in Apple's AVDECC controller or in Hive, choice is yours. AAF is preferred over AM824, but both should work.

If that doesn't help, please post a screenshot of either Hive or Apple's AVDECC controller.

And if you happened to tick the box, the Mac and the 12mic are now in an undefined state. Please reboot both, to make sure both are ready again.


I understand that this is a pretty bad user experience at the moment (that's why we don't support it officially...), but be assured that all concerned parties are already working on resolving this situation, making AVB a flawless plug and play solution.

3 Reply by studiostef (edited by studiostef 2021-06-25 09:54:57)

  • Registered: 2012-05-22
  • Posts: 4

Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi Marc,

thanks for your swift reply. I have a big choir recording in 10 days so I need to get the setup reliably going. I've tried some of your suggestions - but simultaneously decided I'm going to let go of the 12mic - at least for now.
As I understand it the AVB direct to Mac (ie. without a Digiface AVB) is still under development, unsupported and nowhere as reliable and common yet as the Dante Virtual Soundcard connected with a single ethernet cable to the interface - the setup I was aiming for with 12 high quality RME preamps.
And as the chances to get it working also seem to depend on exactly what Mac you are using - this for me is too much of a MacGyver territory to risk with 40 singers waiting to record a one-off concert
Looking forward to further Milan developments - but for now I'm going to stick to a reliable, stable and supported solution for this imminent recording.
Thanks for your help !

Stef

  • Registered: 2019-04-21
  • Posts: 160

Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi Stef,
Before you sell your 12mic… I had some issues as well using me AVP equipment on a Mac without digiface  AVB.
Please read this https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=30826
I have no problems anymore…
Best regards, Marcus

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-06-26 12:17:55)

  • ramses
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  • Registered: 2012-10-14
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Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi Stef,

how are you ? Following the same spirit as mruebsamen told "Before you sell your 12Mic .."

In short, the 12Mic is a great preamp, I would keep it if I were you and just build an established setup that you know works.

I can only give you the following well-intentioned advice from long experience. Of course, it is up to you whether you accept it or not...

Why depend on 3rd party solutions or implementations in the OS when you can build an established RME solution too ?! I have learned one thing in my long IT career, you basically can't force manufacturers or service providers to do anything. It's best to follow established paths that you know work well.

I mean figuratively that it's nice that Apple is starting to embed AVB natively in the OS. However, Apple does not have the same pressure / experience and know-how as a company that lives from products in this segment. And that is ultimately decisive for the quality of such a solution and by quality I mean not only the stability but also the operation, which must also be fast and secure in a professional environment. Same for other 3rd party software solutions.

Therefore I would suggest to connect the 12Mic either in the traditional way via MADI (ADAT would also be possible) to a RME recording interface with TotalMix FX or via an AVB recording interface. Then you can still keep an eye on the other solutions, but for now you are following a path that gives you the required reliability that you need for your projects.

Once Auxdevice support has been added to the 12Mic (promised by RME) you can even remote control the 12Mic's most important parameters through TotalMix FX and digitally store/recall these settings through TM FX snapshots/workspaces.

As reliability is surely critical for you I wouldn't hesitate to consider an UFX+ as recording interface with MADI and DURec.
Then you can use DURec for backup recordings which gives you an additional safety belt.
MADI gives you the benefit to be able to place the 12Mic very flexible as connections between devices may be up to 2km long, longer than you will actually need. The RME "MIDI over MADI" feature will also be of good use for later remote control (Auxdevice), because this makes you independend from MIDI cabling.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2012-05-22
  • Posts: 4

Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi all,

some progress - thanks to Marcus' detailed Hansel & Gretel style breadcrumb trail of steps to follow in his linked post I got it to work.
But as Marc posted earlier - it depends very much on the computer you use. My 2013 Mac Pro seems fine although I'll be testing it the next days to see if behaviour is consistent. My 2015 MBP is rubbish with this identical setup - ticking audio, Pro Tools CPU errors with just 12 channels - with all clocking settings identical. Plus changed Hive settings at each reboot. The same MBP works flawless with + 40 ch via AES50 (through USB) or Dante.
@ Ramses - I know if it were up to RME instead of Apple this trial and error AVB working with no guarantee of success would have long been sorted. It's just the first time that I buy or use RME equipment that does nót have a dedicated RME driver and is nót compatible out of the box with Totalmix. I wasn't aware of that when I bought it - I was told it would work as I expected : 12 pristine preamps, one cable, one computer - period - no extra (Digiface or UFX or..) units or specialised under the hood 3rd party driver tinkering... 

Anyway - thanks for all your help - I'll forget about the MBP & just settle on the Mac Pro for now for testing long recordings & keep you posted...

  • Registered: 2023-02-21
  • Posts: 1

Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi everyone,

I am considering to buy an RME 12Mic and was wondering if standalone AVB operation with a Mac (Mac Studio M1 Ultra in my case) has gotten more stable / is consistently working with the 12Mic.

Do you have any experience testing with the latest versions of macOS?

At the moment, I'm using a PreSonus StudioLive 16R quite successfully for recording with AVB directly into the Mac Studio. However, since the 12Mic's preamps are obviously worlds better, I'm thinking about switching to RME.

  • Registered: 2010-06-25
  • Posts: 34

Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi there - probably not what you want to hear but if I were you I would get the 12mic-D
The Dante version has all the same great features as the AVB version except of course the AOIP format.
Standalone operation using Dante Virtual Soundcard (DVS) works very well as Dante is a mature and working platform.
Just my thoughts.................
Adam

  • Registered: 2022-01-23
  • Posts: 27

Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

The Mac OS PTP problem is related to the profiles that MAC OS uses. As soon as an Apple device enters the network, grandmaster changes can occur. The problem can be solved by reducing the priorities on the end devices in the PTP profile. MAC OS forces others to slave through the profile and then through unfortunate things it comes back and forth through the BMCA. I changed the parameters in the switch and since then the problem has been fixed.

However, the problem is not relevant for a peer-to-peer connection.

10 Reply by bsfreq (edited by bsfreq 2023-06-27 15:49:07)

  • bsfreq
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Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Hi!

Does anyone know if it's at all possible to use both 12mic's ethernet ports to directly connect two Macs for AVB routing and running plugins?

I'm connecting using Apple's TB2 - Gigabit ethernet adapters (+TB3-TB2 adapter). I can successfully setup one Mac a time and they both work just fine alone with the 12Mic (using avbutil or hive), but I haven't been able to make both Macs route audio at the same time. Is there a way to make this work somehow without purchasing an AVB switch?

(Both Macs are running Big Sur 11.7.8, so I can't disable the acquire mode, at least not like mentioned here: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 26#p197026)

I've tried routing using individual streams for both macs, and also sharing the same streams but selecting primary port for one Mac and secondary for the other. Nothing works, so either I'm doing something wrong, or this simply isn't possible.

Would this work if RME releases AVDECC controller for the 12mic? And is this something that might happen one day, or is it completely out of question?

Fireface UFX+ | Fireface UFX | Babyface Pro | 12Mic

11 Reply by bsfreq (edited by bsfreq 2023-06-27 23:45:43)

  • bsfreq
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Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

bsfreq wrote:

Does anyone know if it's at all possible to use both 12mic's ethernet ports to directly connect two Macs for AVB routing and running plugins?

Anyone? Does Max perhaps have any experience with two Macs connected to 12Mic simultaneously?

It would be super convenient if I could make this work without an extra piece of hardware, as I'd only use AVB to route between the 12Mic and my Macbooks.

I'd appreciate any help. Thanks!

Fireface UFX+ | Fireface UFX | Babyface Pro | 12Mic
  • Marc S
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Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

We discussed this internally and there is no technical reason why it shouldn't work. But you got us curious, so I've just tried it out.

My test setup:
Mac A: MacBook Pro M1, MacOS 12.6.1 Monterey
Mac B: Mac mini M2, MacOS 14.0 Sonoma beta
M1610 FW 2.5.0-b10 (unreleased beta, but there are changes relevant to this use case)

I've connected stream 1-4 primary to Mac A and stream 5-8 secondary to Mac B. In the M-1610 routing matrix I've set up a passthrough of all 32 channels for 1-4 to 5-8 and 5-8 to 1-4.
Result: Audio is transferred from Mac A to Mac B  and back using the M1610 as "proxy" without problems.

One caveat: The levelmeters on the M1610 only work for the primary stream and will show nothing on the secondary inputs (and the respective output channels with routings from there). This is a known issue that we haven't addressed yet.

Apple has put a lot of work in their AVB implementation since Big Sur, so that might be the problem in your case. Any chance you can update your Macs? Otherwise, can you provide a couple of screenshots from the AVDECC controller matrix and the web interface?

Best
Marc

13 Reply by bsfreq (edited by bsfreq 2023-06-27 21:07:47)

  • bsfreq
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  • Posts: 244

Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

Thanks for your reply and for trying! And great to hear that you got it working!

I’ll try some more and I’ll let you know, with the screenshots too.

The reason I’ve stayed at Big Sur is simply that I’ve got (mostly) everything running smoothly on that OS, and also it’s been the minimum OS for some of my hard-/software. It’s of course possible to upgrade if necessary, although for this use the other Mac I’m using is actually a Macbook Air back from 2015, and will only upgrade up to Monterey. (Do you know if there was new stuff introduced regarding AVB on Monterey already? I really couldn’t find any info on that, but apparently at least the "Acquire Entity" capabilities were not introduced until Ventura. Would I need to have Ventura on both Macs?)

And the reason I’m still using that Macbook Air is that it’s fast enough for my purpose, it’s silent, and most importantly the only Mac I’ve got that doesn’t have a processor working on a frequency that gets picked up by my guitar pickups as a high-pitched noise when within a meter from the computer. Much nicer to adjust the guitar sounds without hearing any extra whining. wink

Fireface UFX+ | Fireface UFX | Babyface Pro | 12Mic

14 Reply by bsfreq (edited by bsfreq 2023-06-29 16:25:36)

  • bsfreq
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Re: 12mic standalone AVB operation with Mac

SUCCESS!! I got everything working without even upgrading anything. I changed my Macbook Air’s stream 1 to 12Mic stream 1 (secondary) and Macbook Pro’s Stream 1 to 12Mic stream 2 (primary).  I actually got it working so easily that I started wondering if the problem was simply the lack of 12Mic’s secondary stream metering all along:

Marc S wrote:

One caveat: The levelmeters on the M1610 only work for the primary stream and will show nothing on the secondary inputs (and the respective output channels with routings from there). This is a known issue that we haven't addressed yet.

I was staring at the 12mic’s AVB level meters earlier, so it’s possible that I actually got it working then too, without even realizing it. This is not a big problem for me, as I’m running everything from 12Mic through MADI to my UFX+ and TMFX anyway, so I can monitor all the levels there. Yes, of course it would be more intuitive to see all the levels in 12Mic’s web interface also but really, not a big deal. So perhaps you can fix it when you have some extra time from all the other updates. I believe there are not too many people using the 12Mic this way anyway, although this might change as…

I have to say now, that the 12Mic is easily becoming my best purchase in a long while! At first I didn’t even think I would use the AVB ports for anything. It was only after reading that AVB support is already built in Mac OS, and I could simply buy 20€ adapters and cheap ethernet cables to transfer audio to and from my Macs effectively adding more plugin processing power / redundancy / whatever is needed to current setup, this has opened up so many new possibilities!


Thanks again for your support and ingenious products!

Fireface UFX+ | Fireface UFX | Babyface Pro | 12Mic