Topic: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Hey all, hope you're well.

I recieved a pair of RND 542s today and have been having some issues integrating them into my workflow the way I would like.
In fact I'm coming across a pretty strange issue that I'm hoping you can advise on.

The RME Babyface Pro is my interface, and I have it expanded via ADAT with a Cranborne 500ADAT.

I've been using my Louder Than Liftoff Silver Bullet for processing in Cubase, and so far it's going great.

The set up was ADAT 1/2 outputing via XLR from the 500ADAT to The Silver Bullet.
Then returning on ADAT 3/4 also by XLR.
In this instance the 1/2 are set to ADAT on the Cranborne and 3/4 are set to Analog.

If I was doing mono processing, I also used the insert point on The Silver Bullet to add my 76a. All of this has worked wonderfully.

Today I installed the RND 542s into slots 5/6 on the 500ADAT and set the front panel to analog. Ensuring the module bypass was off.
From there I used the insert points on The Silver Bullet to add the 542s into the signal path. I used the same type of cables I use to insert the compressor. Y split cables.

The signal moves as expected, however there is a second version of the audio, a quiet delayed copy.
This only happens when inserting the 500ADAT into The Silver Bullet.
Meters looks good, and the material reacts as expected to any processing moves.

I assumed at first it was a routing mistake within Totalmix, however I have searched high and low.
When reducing the volume of my monitors in totalmix / or via the interface itself. The audio copy can still be heard...
I even went through and muted every channel individually within totalmix, except for the ADAT 1/2 send.
The delayed copy was still present, even when muting the monitor out.

All of my monitoring is done via the Babyface, I am not using any of the aux or monitoring features of the 500ADAT.

I have tested the Babyface Pro in DAW mode as well,
The same issue prevails.

I can of course simply route The Silver Bullet returns to 5/6 and have the 542 processing take place at the end of the chain.
I've tried this and it worked nicely. However I would like to address the issue for when I add a Filterbank, which would be before the compressor on The Silver Bullet insert.

How is it possible for signal to continue to pass through the monitors when the output is muted in totalmix?

Any advice greatly appreciated guys!

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

What monitors are those ? And how are they connected ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Hi there.

They are Eris 5s, connected directly to output 1/2 on the Babyface Pro

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Is there a headphone connected to one of your devices ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

There is yeah. Focal's into the phones output

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

The low signal with the small delay you heard, could that be coming from that headphone ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Definitely not, it's from the monitor.
I actually muted everything but the adat send and return. Same result

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

The analog outputs of your Babyface provides a sound to the speakers while that output is muted in Totalmix ?
Then the Babyface should go to the inspection at RME service.
I suggest to contact the support :  support@rme-audio.com

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

That's right yeah, though only when 500ADAT is inserted into the Silver Bullet insert points.
No problems outside of that.
I did wonder if perhaps there was cross talk going on, or an equivalent

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

So if there’s a delay between the signals you’re hearing then I am wondering what buffer setting you have the Babyface using? The delay would suggest it is multiple trips DA AD DA AD etc.

The 500Adat will always send it’s input back to adat - regardless of if the initial signal is sourced from analog or digital. There is no stopping this. Both the Babyface and 500Adat rack (I own 2 of these) are reliable devices suggesting you have some rogue signal routing in totalmix. Maybe try viewing the totalmix as a matrix instead of a mixer. This can help in seeing routing you might miss in the other view.

Kind regards

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

I did change the buffer settings to test, with no joy.

I tested totalmix in DAW mode, so no submix routing, with the same result.
As I mentioned previously, the audio can be heard even when the monitors are muted in totalmix

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Mute everything and every submix. Then enable one by one until you find the culprit. If you do this from matrix view it might be easier.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Where exactly do you hear that signal? Since Totalmix can not delay signal, it must be coming from the software somewhere.
Try reproducing the situation and then just unplug the analog signal path to the external signal processor. Do you still hear a signal, if so, where, and where is it visible in Totalmix?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

I appreciate the help guys. Cranborne believe it must be a routing issue within totalmix too.

I've made a video and taken some screenshots that can hopefully help.

https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/500ADAT

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

The Dropbox page requires some kind of registration....
No "routing issue" in Totalmix could cause an audible delay, really, so this does seem unlikely.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Apologies. Please try this one.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ek0b7yuwove9 … XnSsa?dl=0

17 (edited by waedi 2021-08-17 17:13:59)

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Have you tried unplug the XLR cable from the Babyface, if the speakers still produce sound then the signal is not coming from the Babyface, it is coming thru the power cable, some weird crossfeed from the silver bullet into the power circuit...?
Also please check if there is any connection from the RPN to somewhere, better disconnect it at all for test.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

I will give that a go, just to rule that out.

I think its likely that the signal is coming in on both 3/4 and 5/6.
Although I can't see anything that would indicate that it should be.

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

I disconnected the monitor XLRs and the sound stopped.

Whilst I was doing this, I tried arming and recording on an audio track that was being sent ADAT 5/6, and found that it printed the phantom signal.
Despite having totalmix and cubase set up as in my previous screenshots / video.

I made another video demonstrating this.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c0ag0cdrw8ugp … e.mp4?dl=0

20 (edited by vinark 2021-08-18 07:56:47)

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Total mix has no influence on what is recorded. Only on what you send to it's outputs.
So now you know the phantom signal is coming in through 5 and  6 right?
What is connected to 5 and 6?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Ahh okay.

The 500 series modules which are housed in slots 5/6 are inserted into the silver bullets insert points.

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

I think the part I'm struggling with, is how I can stop / disable hearing the signal from 5/6, as I only want to use it as a hardware insert.
I'm not sure what is actually monitoring it?

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

You can pull the fader for 5/6 down on all subgroupes or mute it. This won't affect the return loop afaiu your setup.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

You can see in my videos that I muted all faders except my software and hardware send, and the sound can still be heard.

25

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Do a TotalMix Total Reset to make sure there isn't a routing under the hood that is not shown in the GUI. Store your workspace first so you can recreate all mix settings by comparison.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Hi there. That's one of the first things I tried.
I've just gave it another go there, and the issue persists unfortunatley.

A bit of progress though;

Within Cubase;
When only the external effect send is active (1/2), without allocating a return buss, the phantom signal can still be heard.
Meaning that it is potentially the send itself that is being monitored.

However if I reduce either the ADAT 1/2 hardware output in totalmix, or the AS 1/2 software playback that is feeding it, nothing is sent out to the hardware.

Picture attached to show this in Cubase;

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4j7l4m0x9qawu … s.jpg?dl=0

With the rest of the previous screencaps and videos here;

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ek0b7yuwove9 … XnSsa?dl=0

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

I think I've safely eliminated Cubase as any sort of source of the signal.

I also tried this using different adat sends.

On the audio track; send to stereo out removed, track muted.
Cubase Stereo out itself muted on master.

In the Cubase routing settings; monitor outs removed completely and no return from the external effects send.

In totalmix - checking via both main windowand  matrix view; the only sends not reduced are cubase software and adat out which I am sending out to gear on.
Everything else at 0, including monitor outs.

As previously, when the inserts are removed from the SB, everything behaves as it should.
Meaning that it must be adat 5/6 which are being monitored somewhere.

Video attached;

https://www.dropbox.com/s/m2x6o4bzojitp … t.mp4?dl=0

I am perplexed and becoming increasingly frustrated.

28 (edited by waedi 2021-08-23 00:48:53)

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Have you done the Totalmix Total Reset ? Give it a try.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Do you mean the one in:

Options -> Reset Mix -> Total Reset?

If so, then I've tried it twice with no joy

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Cranborne suggested:

If you can, it would be awesome to try out the 500ADAT standalone to determine if the bleed is making its way through its internal circuitry.

If you disconnect 500ADAT from your RME via ADAT, connect a line source - such as a keyboard, CD player, MP3, to the inputs of slots 1/2, and set the source switch to inputs 1-2 to ANLG, the whole chain should work as expected but in the analogue domain - this would completely remove the RME from the setup.

Next, if you connect headphones to the 500ADAT, set the Blend control to MIX, then raise each Mix level control beneath each slot one at a time to see what you are getting. You should be able to get good, strong signal from all of the slots and they should all, hopefully, be more or less fully in time with each other. I would be very interested to know if slots 5-6 sound clean and in time.

When doing this, 1/2, 3/4 and 5/6 are all of similar sonic quality.

This seems to indicate the Babyface Pro is the issue.

Should I raise a support ticket for this? I haven't had many replies from Tech Support in this thread.

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

To test the RME connect something like a CD player to 5\6 and see if there is bleed. Or connect the output of your effect loop the the return {5\6} straight without the Crainborn. If you have no bleed it is not the RME.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Hey man. How can I connect them to 5/6 without using the 500ADAT for expansion?

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

Oops then just connect the adat out of RME to adat in, a loopback.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Bizarre Hybrid Routing Issue - 500ADAT, Silver Bullet, BabyFace Pro

I've opened a support request for this, as I'm no further forward.