1 Topic by Star Label (edited by Star Label 2021-10-01 01:28:47)

  • Registered: 2021-10-01
  • Posts: 2

Topic: Need more mix/sends and monitor outputs, any advice?

Hey guy's this is my first post. I need some advice, I think I have bought the wrong RME units.

I'm not a sound engineer, just a drummer recording drums, so forgive my confusion or need to ask questions or seek your assistance here.


I have 16 analogue press (Phoenix DRS-8, Aviom 737sp, Focusrite ISA 430, and Buzz audio 2.2 and Qsp 4) and a Universal Audio 4-710, so that's 24 channels in total. The 16 analogue pres are currently running through an SSL XLogic Alpha Link converter, and then into the RME digiface USB the 4-710 direct, and then via a usb cable into my computer, where I'm using Logic Pro as my DAW..

I also have the Arc USB, bought this thinking that it would give me a few sends out and help me control my monitors and IEM sends, but I'm missing something.

I also have an analogue Aviom system (A-16D Pro & AN-16/i) from my old analogue studio, with 8 controllers; which I thought would be of great use if it could coordinate with the REM interface somehow.

Prior to this I had been using the Audient ID44 interface, which had two stereo monitor outs and a two individual headphone mix outputs that did the job but wasn't enough. So I moved to RME, but I need more outputs and more control over all those outputs.

I like the Total mix, but seems I need some sort of interface that has heaps of outputs?


Anyways, this is what I'm wanting to do (note: I'm happy to sell and buy what I need to do it well)

1. I'm wanting to keep all my analogue pres and the 4-710 (can sell or replace the SSL converter).
2. If I can integrate my Aviom system with total mix then great (what do I need to make this happen?); otherwise happy to let it go and just use total mix with a way to send individual mixes to the band;
3. ATM I don't have enough outputs with the RME units to control my monitors A and also B, and at least a few sends to other analogue out board gear as well as six (6) individual mixes/sends to the band. So I need something to do this.
4. I also need a control surface for mixing - was Looking at the SSL nucleus.  Thoughts? compatibility? connectivity? suggestions?

There you go: that's what I have and what I use, so what do I need to replace?

Any experience, advice and recommendations welcome.

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-10-02 09:25:02)

  • ramses
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Re: Need more mix/sends and monitor outputs, any advice?

That's quite a task package, a drawing and a device overview (purpose, analog and digital connections) would have been helpful.

Do you record in single or also double speed ?
How do you provide clock synchronization at the moment (as Digiface USB has no Word Clock and UA4710 has no ADAT IN)?
Which device is clock master?

I would propose a MADI based setups to match the channel count and to allow for recording in double speed.
If you need a lot of analog inputs (at least 24) maybe better 32 I recommend products like M32-Pro AD or M-1610 Pro.

As you have Apple it could be beneficial to think about a thunderbolt based connection, optional USB3.
A very good recording interface would be the UFX+.
It is ideal to be connected to an Apple with either Thunderbolt or USB3.

A few proposals

a) UFX+ with M-32 AD

Apple Laptop
|
| Thunderbolt or USB3
|
RME UFX+ ----->-------MADI -------------------------------------- M-32 Pro AD (32x analog inputs)
+  +   +---------<-------MADI----------------------------------------+
|   |
|   +-------------<------ADAT IN (up to 2x for double speed)------ UA 4-710
|
+-----------------8x Analog In
+-----------------8x Analog Out (4 ports for monitor A and B)
+-----------------2x Headphones Outputs

Gives you 32+8 = 40 analog IN, 8x analog out, 2x Phones, 2x ADAT, AES

b) UFX+ with M-1610 Pro

Apple Laptop
|
| Thunderbolt or USB3
|
RME UFX+ ----->-------MADI -------------------------------------- M-1610 Pro (16x analog in, 8x analog out)
+  +   +---------<-------MADI----------------------------------------+
|   |
|   +-------------<------ADAT IN (up to 2x for double speed)------ UA 4-710
|
+-----------------8x Analog In
+-----------------8x Analog Out (4 ports for monitor A and B)
+-----------------2x Headphones Outputs

Gives you 16+8=24 analog IN, 8+8=16 analog out, 2x Phones, 2x ADAT, AES

c) and the premium solution with ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for connecting active monitors and phones

Apple Laptop
|
| Thunderbolt or USB3
|
RME UFX+ ----->-------MADI -------------------------------------- M-32 Pro AD (32x analog inputs)
+  +  +   +-----<-------MADI----------------------------------------+
|   |   |
|   |   +---------<------ADAT IN (up to 2x for double speed)------ UA 4-710
|   |
|   +-----------------8x Analog In
|   +-----------------8x Analog Out (2 ports for monitor B)
|   +-----------------2x Headphones Outputs
|
+--------------->---AES------------- ADI-2 Pro FS R BE --------> Active Monitors (for monitor A)
                                                                            +---------> Phones

Gives you 32+8+2 = 42 analog IN, 8+2=10x analog out, 2+2=4x Phones, 2x ADAT, AES

Clock

UFX+ will be clock master, RME devices, that are connected through MADI will get clock from MADI.
The ADI-2 Pro will get it though AES. For other devices there are a lot of possibilities to get clock.
The ARC USB you can keep as remote for TM FX.

Flexibility in terms of submixes in TM FX

With TM FX each output can get an individual submix from all HW inputs (audio from your HW in near-realtime) and SW playback channels (audio from PC with the typical RTL, round trip latency).

Support for different reference levels per port

Reference Levels for analog ports can be configured for UFX+, M-32 Pro and M-1610 Pro on a per port basis.
This is a bonus for you if you connect a lot of different devices to the analog inputs.

Optional: integration of ADI-2 Pro FS

Only if you are interested in some of the special features of this device, the analog section in the UFX+ is fine enough.
A few dB SNR more or less are not critical.
You need to check on your own with valid blind tests, whether the ADI-2 Pro maybe gives for your ears, devices, environment also a little bit better sound (maybe better transients, "3D-stage").
Maybe you can make good use of dynamic loudness when listening at lower volumes or you like it to use it as kind of monitor controller to be able to control the end volume of your main monitors and phones (ear/gear protection).

Good investment into the future

Future proof, as the converters can be used not only in a MADI but also in an AVB setup, if this should be a topic for you in the future.

Remaining questions

Your other questions regarding e.g. control interface (Nucleus) need to be answered by somebody else.
That was all from my side in regards to a solid RME based setup giving you high quality and a lot of options and features.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2021-10-01
  • Posts: 2

Re: Need more mix/sends and monitor outputs, any advice?

Wow! mate, that's a lot of work there.  thank you so much for your time. 

I've had to go and research heaps to understand what you're saying there.
So thanks for the knowledge growth also.


The UFX+ seems to be the best starting point. Am I right is thinking that the UFX+ can handle at least 12 of my analogue pres as well as my 4-710?  if so how? I can't see how they all would connect on the back. Also would that mean I delete my SSL converter and the Digiface USB?


Also to answer a few of your earlier questions:

WORLD CLOCK & SYNC: I don't use world clock just yet, still not sure how to or when I need to?

REC SPEED: I don't know why I'd need to record in double speed, but at the moment it's only single.

The ADI-2 Pro FS does interest me.

Thanks again.

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-10-02 10:25:27)

  • ramses
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Re: Need more mix/sends and monitor outputs, any advice?

Star Label wrote:

Wow! mate, that's a lot of work there.  thank you so much for your time. 

I've had to go and research heaps to understand what you're saying there.
So thanks for the knowledge growth also.

Thanks, you're welcome wink

Star Label wrote:

The UFX+ seems to be the best starting point. Am I right is thinking that the UFX+ can handle at least 12 of my analogue pres as well as my 4-710?  if so how? I can't see how they all would connect on the back.

You mentioned in your starting post:

> The 16 analogue pres are currently running through an SSL XLogic Alpha Link converter ...

This devices has analog INs, performs A/D conversion and sends it through ADAT to your Digiface USB and to Apple.
This is being performed now in the proposal above by either
- UFX+ (8 inputs)
- M-1610 Pro (16 inputs) or
- M-32 Pro (32 inputs)

> ... and then into the RME digiface USB the 4-710 direct

And this can only be through ADAT as the Digiface USB has no analog inputs.
So in the solutions above this can be achieved by connecting it to the UFX+ which has two ADAT inputs, so even double speed would be possible in the future to connect UA 4-710 to UFX+ using the 2 ADAT inputs ADAT1 and ADAT2 IN.

Also this I highlighted in the proposals, I changed now "UA" to "UA 4-710" to make it more clear.
"|   |   +---------<------ADAT IN (up to 2x for double speed)------ UA 4-710"

Star Label wrote:

Also would that mean I delete my SSL converter and the Digiface USB?

Yes. We only have 2 ADAT ports on the UFX+, but you need at least 3 (2 for SSL, 1 for UAD in case of single speed).
Otherwise you would have to buy an ADI-648 8-port ADAT/MADI converter to expand the number of ADAT ports of the solution. But then you would have 2 from UFX+ and 8 from the ADI-648 = 10. And this is perhaps a little bit overkill.
https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_adi648_op … andler.htm
That costs alone €2499, which is an expensive pleasure for a device that you would only use to a small extent.

I think it would be better to invest this money directly in the latest converter technology and directly in the transparent / high quality RME converters. This will improve your overall performance and you will also have devices that would still work in an AVB context later on (M-32 Pro and M-1610 Pro).

Star Label wrote:

WORLD CLOCK & SYNC: I don't use world clock just yet, still not sure how to or when I need to?

It's only needed if the device, that you want to connect to your recording interface, has no digital input like ADAT, AES, MADI from where it could get the clock signal from. Its fully sufficient to transmit clock signal over the digital connections together with audio.

I could be wrong but it appears to me as if your UA 4-710 is either the clock master in your setup and if not, then it is possibly not properly clock synchronized to your setup and then some sound issues might happen occasionally.

So, in your setup I am wondering what the clock master is, it has to be the UA 4-710. Why ? You say you do not use WC and if I understood correctly, then your UA 4-710 is connected to the Digiface USB through ADAT.
But then the UA 4-710 must be clock master, because he has no digital inputs like e.g. ADAT IN to be able to receive a clock signal. If your UA 4-710 is not the clock master in your setup, then this device is not properly clock synched to your setup.

This is how I understood your setup

Apple
|
Digiface USB -------<----ADAT1 IN-------------- SSL -------- 16x analog inputs
                   +------<-----ADAT2 IN-------------+
                   +------>-----ADAT1 OUT-----------+ (for sending the clock signal from Digiface USB to SSL)
                   +------<-----ADAT3 IN-------------- UA 4-710

To properly clock synch the UA 4-710 to your setup there are IMHO only two solutions possible:
a) make it to clock master, the Digiface USB need to learn clock through ADAT3 IN and will distribute clock further through ADAT1 OUT to the SSL.
b) keep Digiface USB as clock master, sends clock SSL through ADAT1 OUT and then you need to implement Word Clock between SSL and UA 4-710 if the SSL has a WC (I don't know this at the moment).

Star Label wrote:

REC SPEED: I don't know why I'd need to record in double speed, but at the moment it's only single.

Same as I do .. I only want to mention it, because so many people talk about high resolution audio and what not.
For a future proof environment (in terms of "investment protection") I simply expect that such a demand might arise at a certain point (if you do not tell me otherwise) and then it would be fine, if the components would support it.

Star Label wrote:

The ADI-2 Pro FS does interest me.

It's a real great device, I love it.
Very nice to be used in the monitoring section (for phones, speakers).
Acts also as kind of monitor controller / ear protection.
In TM FX it can happen to accidently get 0dB on your outputs which can become very loud quickly.
With the ADI-2 Pro FS in front of your main monitors your have an implicit volume protection as you set the final volume for monitors with a volume knob on the ADI-2 Pro, then your maximum volume is set.

You find some information in this sticky on RME forum: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=32506

and also here from my blog area, e.g. these two
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ses-EN-DE/
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

There are also others, see this overview of blog articles that I wrote about ADI-2 Pro, UFX+ and other devices:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Cbersicht/

About UFX+:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/
My setup for silent recording with UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -DURec-DE/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14