Topic: Should I change my AIO Pro for an UCX II?

Hi, I have never been able to get a stable system with large orchestral projects (Cubase 11 + VEP7) with my AIO Pro. I can´t use it below 1024 buffer and even at those numbers I get performance issues. Something that never happened with my previous Motu Avb USB interface.

I was told when trying to troubleshoot those issues, that that Usb iterface had safety buffers and could handle large sessions (adding latency of course), some users told me that a babyface would had been a better option.

So, does the new UCX II can fix my problems, does it have those buffers, or will it be the same as the AIO?
What do you think?
Thanks!

2 (edited by mkok 2021-11-04 08:45:11)

Re: Should I change my AIO Pro for an UCX II?

I can’t see it being any better. You don’t say what computer you have and the specs

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

3 (edited by ramses 2021-11-04 10:37:01)

Re: Should I change my AIO Pro for an UCX II?

You need to provide more data about your setup so that it's possible to correlate the data in relation to the subject matter.

1. computer (CPU, RAM, HD/SSD,Mainboard/Chipset).
2. besides ASIO buffersize also the sample rate
3. besides ASIO buffersize also the RTL of the driver
4. number of audio channels, which are transmitted through computer interface (e.g. USB, PCIe)

The ASIO buffersizes at different sample rates
- single speed, 44.1/48 kHz, 256
- double speed, 88.2/96 kHz, 512
- quad speed, 176.4/192 kHz, 1024
are de facto the same, if you double or quadruple the data throughput, then inevitably the buffers must also become larger.

But with increasing sample rate, the load on the overall system also increases, because each component (hardware/software) has to process more data in total. Also from each VST/VSTi in the DAW.

On the other hand, the latency between computer and recording interface (the RTL, round trip latency over USB/FW/TB/PCI/PCIe) and also the converter latency decreases with increasing sample rate.

So if you compare the Motu interface with the AIO, you really need to ensure that the setup is equal / compareable
- same project, same load
- same sample rate / ASIO buffersizes

And then you still have to consider whether both interfaces have the same number of channels to transmit and if the chosen ASIO buffersizes for the different products (in this case RME and MOTU) have the same RTL.

I have often seen that the RTL of RME interfaces with the same ASIO buffersize settings was up to half lower compared to other vendors products.
This is good for the user, but means for the computer more load, higher near-realtime requirements, but then also to fetch the data in time, for this the computer has less time.

In such a case it can be that badly written drivers on your computer can make themselves more disturbingly noticeable and occupy CPU cores too long, so that the audio processes cannot be processed in time. In this case you have to measure with LatencyMon, which drivers these are and see if you can minimize these latencies by driver up/downgrade or even change a hardware component, so that the CPU cores are available faster for audio processes. So minimize DPC latencies.

The goal of optimizing the computer (BIOS/OS Settings, HW/driver) is to minimize internal latencies (those DPCs) because: the more efficient your computer works (good drivers = low DPC latencies) the smaller you can choose ASIO buffersizes or in other words, the more threshold you have until if comes to a drop of audio.

Or to put it differently, if your Motu has less channels or the driver was more comfortable, then the load on your computer was not that high. With RME you may need higher ASIO buffersizes, but it may be, as I said, that the RTL is significantly lower with RME drivers compared to other interfaces.

That's the reason why you can't really contribute to the matter at this point with the little info you provide, necessary details are missing and still then you have to correlate and rate all this information.

First you would have to find out if the two setups are so easily comparable:  Number of channels, how high is the RTL with the same ASIO buffersize, ...

And then it's still hard to say how your system (about which there is no usable info so far) performs and whether it would perhaps also get along well with a USB-based solution.

It may also be that you would need to use a dedicated USB card to decouple the recording interface from the rest of the audio infrastructure.

Maybe there are general latency / DPC problems on your system that you need to get a handle on first (-> LatencyMon). Maybe then the whole discussion .... is unnecessary, it could be that a driver here CPUs take too long.
This is not that uncommon and can change any time after driver updates.
If it runs well once, it doesn't mean that it will continue like this forever, if you get other versions installed again and again due to automatic driver updates.
It is fundamentally different whether the drivers all come from Microsoft or you install a certain version of the manufacturer yourself for some drivers, whereby you have control over whether and when you upgrade.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Should I change my AIO Pro for an UCX II?

Hi Ramses thanks for the response, I remember you trying to troubleshoot mi AIO when I first installed it.

Computer Specs:
9900k
128gb
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI (all wifi and bluetooth and bloat in the bios disabled)
Amd Radeon rx460

I used all the same settings (24/48k) with both the motu and the AIO, motu at 1024 played without a hiccup, AIO had problems.
Minimal track count going in and out. Stereo outs, headphones....in the past I was using a summing mixer with the Motu and I had 24 channels going out, again, not a hiccup.
Latency check all green.

Let´s take the motu out of the question.
Seeing that I cannot play complex film scoring projects with the AIO (maybe it is something inherent in the sytem?) could a UCX change the situation or should I sell and go back to Motu?

5 (edited by ramses 2021-11-04 21:00:43)

Re: Should I change my AIO Pro for an UCX II?

> Minimal track count going in and out.
Again, all channels of a recording interface are always being transferred always regardless how many you use in the application.

Still no information about RTL between the two interfaces, maybe the MOTU uses more safety buffers or is not written that efficient, so that the PC has more time to process audio.

> could a UCX change the situation or should I sell and go back to Motu?
Nobody will be able to tell you this upfront, you will need to try that out things like this are much system dependend, board design, BIOS, chipset and what not.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Should I change my AIO Pro for an UCX II?

In theory pcie is a little better then USB. On my aging system this is true. My hdsp9652 performs marginally better then my Babyface. But so little difference it is not interesting. Like being able to run 98 vs 95 the same plugins at low latency. So unless there is some problem with you pcie buss that hampers performance, I would not expect a USB device to perform better.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Should I change my AIO Pro for an UCX II?

pablo1980 wrote:

Hi Ramses thanks for the response, I remember you trying to troubleshoot mi AIO when I first installed it.

Computer Specs:
9900k
128gb
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI (all wifi and bluetooth and bloat in the bios disabled)
Amd Radeon rx460

I used all the same settings (24/48k) with both the motu and the AIO, motu at 1024 played without a hiccup, AIO had problems.
Minimal track count going in and out. Stereo outs, headphones....in the past I was using a summing mixer with the Motu and I had 24 channels going out, again, not a hiccup.
Latency check all green.

Let´s take the motu out of the question.
Seeing that I cannot play complex film scoring projects with the AIO (maybe it is something inherent in the sytem?) could a UCX change the situation or should I sell and go back to Motu?

Regarding LatencyMon measuring.
Although LatencyMon also induces a DAW load it's nowhere specified how big this DAW load is.
It can not be high, as my CPU only shows 1-2% CPU load.

So in your case I propose to measure with YOUR DAW load running this complex film scoring project, which causes issues.
You need to run this at minimum for the same time until you get issues in your project and maybe a few minutes more.
5-10 minutes in total would be fine.

Be also aware of, if LatencyMon does not complain the values can still be quite high so that its shortly before the message, that your system has issues to process audio reliably. If you have DAW projects causing a very high load, then you need to raise ASIO buffer sizes. If 1024 is not enough then try 2048.

FInal question:
What is the ASIO input/output latency for the Motu and the AIO at 48 kHz with an ASIO buffersize of 1024.
Which Motu card is it exactly and how many channels does it have.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13