Topic: Motherboard recommendations for UFX+

Greetings!

Last time in 2017 I had hard times bringing my ufx+ to the acceptable latency on my i7-4790k and Asus Z97a. RME employees called my setup as "broken".

This time I would like to get a recommendation about mb choice please. I am looking at ASUS again but have a concern that RME folks may filter it out.

So, here is essentially, the bucket:
I7-11700K

ASUS TUF GAMING Z590-PLUS WIFI
ASUS PRIME Z590-A
ASUS ROG STRIX Z590-A GAMING WIFI

And their variants (WiFi, gaming, plus, etc)

Please consider the other components selected properly, i.e. a good and stable ram at 4000-5000, Samsung SSDs, Asus thunderbolt extension card or PCI USB 3.0 controller with Fresco chip.

Thank you very much!

Re: Motherboard recommendations for UFX+

Hello. I guess my first question is what do you consider to be acceptable latency? Also, there is a lot that goes into a low latency number.
Track count. Effects usage. Memory quantity, quality, speed and motherboard compatibility. HDD/SDD. Software type and brand.
Windows vs Mac. and version.

My last PC build was 3 years ago.
Ryzen 7 x2700
Prime Pro X470
PC 4 - 25600  32 GB
Samsung 970 Pro 512 GB - Samsung 860 Evo 1 TB

Never a problem with this setup. The RME Drivers and integration with Windows and Cakewalk has been flawless.
If RME says the problem is on your end, the problem is 99.999% likely on your end.
I have a UFX+ That has never let me down. But I generally run less than 12 tracks.
64 samples is not a problem in my DAW.  If I start adding effects to every track, using it for general PC use (keeping an antivirus running in the background, staying attached to the network, and other bad ideas) then I’ll need to potentially increase the ASIO buffer size to 128
I record 90% ITB. Roland TD27 line out to UFX+ Preamps.
Axe FX III AES to UFX AES. And vocals/acoustic guitar to the 2nd set of front panel preamps.
The UFX+ is one of the best audio interfaces I’ve ever used and one of the best I’ve ever heard as well. TotalMix is a godsend compared to some other AI software I’ve used.

3 (edited by ramses 2021-11-15 10:12:37)

Re: Motherboard recommendations for UFX+

Hi Alex,

sorry for this long post, but it's not easy to answer this question, because there is so much hardware out, that really nobody can test all combination. Especially because audio has near-realtime demands. The usual benchmarks will fail here to determine, whether a system is really good for audio processing.

Next problem is, that audio workloads can be so different. Pure recording has the lowest requirements (you can work with highest ASIO buffersizes as RTL is not critical). But working with VSTi and CPU hungry VST's or with many inserts in one or more tracks can be very time critical.

I would recommend to get a PC with components / drivers that have been tested for audio to get the most out of it.

IMHO most critical points
- get a CPU that suits your workload well (in terms of number of cores, base/turbo clock, single thread performance ..)
- to get hardware components (mainboard, driver) which allow for low DPC latencies (good drivers)
- mainboard with a good chipset and good implementation of USB according to standards (otherwise you might need an additional PCIe card for CPU with known good chipset/driver combination)

Proper CPU selection is an art of itself. You should talk to an experienced person who knows this topic very well for audio processing, as audio workloads can be so different. Also DAWs differ in how they can utilize a CPU with many cores.

To be flexible and also be able to run CPU hungry VSTi which run on one CPU core you should look, that the CPU has a still high enough base clock and excellent single thread performance.

The more cores a CPU has, the lower the base clock and the single thread performance usually is. Many cores are brilliant for certain benchmarks where the computing load can be spread across many cores and where it is not critical in what time or order the results arrive (e.g. rendering of pictures).

In contrast to such benchmarks which can utilize a lot of cores audio processing has strong real-time requirements, there the processing of data is time critical. If you have e.g. a project where you use CPU hungry VSTi or where you put a lot of inserts into one track ... then all the processing needs to be performed in a certain order by one CPU (many inserts in a track) and also  "in time" which requires a CPU core which can process this all fast enough. This workload needs a high single thread performance as it usually can not be split across many cores.

Next critical thing is that you get hardware with well written drivers that follow programming conventions, not to block a CPU core for too long. Bad written drivers allocate a CPU core for too long. If there are audio processes, that are scheduled to run on this core, they need to wait for execution. You might get audio drops if your ASIO buffers are set too low for the a) workload and b) for such a system which bad drivers.
You can only compensate that by using higher ASIO buffer sizes, which results in a more efficient I/O, lowers CPU and Interrupt load of your system a bit, but it's worse for a small RTL (round trip latency) and near-realtime processing performance.

There is nothing / nobody which can tell you, whether this or that hardware has good drivers, so that you get a brilliant real-time performance and that you can work with lower ASIO buffersizes without audio loss (and this depends also on DAW and your DAW project). This is why you pay for such an audio turnkey system more compared to a normal system, as testing components takes much time and needs experienced people.

Driver updates (be it Microsoft drivers or installation of newer 3rd party drivers by Microsoft) can result in problems, that the updated drivers cause more DPC latency. Besides a good presales support you will also need post-sales support from a company which can give you advice what to do, after an automatic driver updated changed the performance behaviour of your system.

If you know a company which is good in it it can save you worries and you can get an excellent PC where you can use as a tendency lower ASIO buffersizes and maybe also higher samplerates in your projects compared to other PCs and you will get support as I sad, if something fails after updates.

If you have worked with VSTi's then you know that the round trip time between recording interface and PC should be less than 10ms. So with single speed (44.1/48kHz) you need to use ASIO buffersizes in the range of 32 .. 128 buffers. 256 buffers are already too much (around 13.x ms). So you have 32, 48, 64, 128 as a choice for ASIO buffersizes. Depending on your HW / drivers (DPC latencies) and the complexity of your project this can be challenging. You might even need a DAW which is able to freeze tracks (like e.g. Cubase), so that tracks with CPU consuming VST/VSTi can be pre-computed and will be played back only as wave file to save CPU time ...

I can't give you a recommendation, which company is really good in this business and has a good support so that it's worth spending this extra money.

Of course there is a good chance to get a proper product, on the other hand nobody wants to be under the ~5-10% of people who did a bad selection or who need much time/effort to try different HW components and at the end of the day it turns out that you have most likely a bad mainboard and BIOS updates can not fix it.

I had myself a case in the past, that with one MSI mainboard I couldn't reach DPC latencies under ~220us (microseconds). Because I needed USB3 and SATA6 and the add-on combi controller didn't perform I decided to use the successor of this mainboard (the same but with USB3 and SATA6 directly on-board). And voila, same Windows installation (I only switched the mainboard) and I could reach DPC latencies under 20us which was not possible with the other mainboard. Alone by this difference (fewer DPC latencies) I could use as a tendency lower ASIO buffersizes or in other words had "more threshold" / "more safety" that audio loss does not occurr even with smaller buffersizes, because cpus had a higher availability for other processes if they are blocked lesser by driver code (DPCs).

I hope this little overview introduced you into the thematic .. either you have "good luck" or can get a good recommendation from another person (which you need to trust) or you go to a specialist who can deliver you a tested turnkey system for audio (which you need to trust as well).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Motherboard recommendations for UFX+

You don’t say where you are located but in the UK I go to SCAN or cclcomputers. They both build specific audio PCs. SCAN are prober ly better as they do a lot of audio equipment and testing.

I used to build myself but if there is a problem or even a faulty component I didn’t have spares to swap out and check. My last was from CCL who are very close to me, so easy to take back to base. Plus I get 3 years back to base warranty and the cost is not that much above the component cost.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

5 (edited by ramses 2021-11-15 17:06:46)

Re: Motherboard recommendations for UFX+

SCAN also lists the components being used ..
https://www.scan.co.uk/shop/computer-ha … /3337/3341

This could be a nice system ..
https://www.scan.co.uk/products/3xs-pro … d-see-info

Motherboard    ASUS ProArt X570-CREATOR WIFI
Processor    AMD Ryzen 9 5950X, 16C/32T, 3.4GHz - 4.9GHz
CPU Cooler    be quiet! Dark Rock PRO
Memory        4x 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX 3600MHz DDR4
System Drive     1 or 2 TB Seagate Firecuda PCIe 4.0 M.2 NVMe SSD
Project Drive     2TB WD Blue SN550 M.2 NVMe SATA SSD
[...]

Mainboard with Thunderbolt 4 and passiv chipset cooler...
10GBit and 2.5GBit networking...

For me such an upgrade would cost between €1320 and €1820 depending on whether I would like to get two new M.2 disks. 2TB for system drive to have more room for games and sample libraries and a quicker project drive.
I think 32 GB DRAM would still be sufficient for a longer time.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8k47mhvc137ieeb/2021-11-15%2016_45_39-NewPC-AMD%20Ryzen%20based.jpg?dl=1

I was tempted to get it .. BUT ... I have no high demand for an upgrade. My 6y old Xeon based system still performs well enough. There are currently no games that require more CPU power than I have, the R5-1650v4 drives a RTX 2070 Super well enough.

Therefore I will wait a little bit longer and wait for
- DDR5 and
- AMDs answer on Intels new Hybrid CPU (*)

(*) and hope, that AMD does not choose the same "overcomplicating" design with performance cores (P-cores) and eight efficiency cores (E-cores).
Read this Anandtech article: "The Intel 12th Gen Core i9-12900K Review: Hybrid Performance Brings Hybrid Complexity"
by Dr. Ian Cutress & Andrei Frumusanu
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17047/th … complexity

I personally think for recording there is nothing better than performance ... E-cores are only disturbing here and there are too many possibilities of wrong scheduling decisions for audio related processes for my taste.
I also do not like Intels late decision to disable AVX-512 simply to be quicker on market.
This also means (even if ppl found out how to enable it) that it is not well tested from Intel and there will be no support for it (should something be fixable in firmware).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 (edited by ramses 2021-11-15 23:02:14)

Re: Motherboard recommendations for UFX+

Found some nice tuning proposals here in this thread:
https://forums.steinberg.net/t/8-18-cor … tup/103725

Most impact by:
- PowerMizer Switch, “Battery off

In “Nvidia Systemsteuerung” I set this:
- Energy management modus: prefer max performance
- Threaded Optimization: On
- V-Sync: Off (according to some internet articles not recommended, best to keep the default to use settings of 3D applications)

Results: DPC latencies decreased for the nVidia driver when accessing many URLs with firefox.
Prevents audio loss at low ASIO buffersizes.
nvlddmkm.sys stays now under ~500 microseconds according to LatencyMon.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13