1 Topic by Slipperman (edited by Slipperman 2021-12-14 11:55:53)

  • Registered: 2015-06-06
  • Posts: 21

Topic: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Hello,

I may have got things off the wrong foot, can anyone help me to sort things out?

1. Connection from UFX+ with optical Madi as clock to 1st 12Mic. Works brilliantly in terms of both clock and signal
2. Connection between 1st 12Mic and 2nd 12Mic through MOTU AVB Switch. No clock to 2nd 12mic and, apparently, no signal back to 1st 12Mic.
3. Word clock from 1st 12Mic to 2nd 12Mic works, but still unable to transfer signal from 2nd 12Mic back to first 12Mic.

Other network operations work i.e. I can manage the 12Mic through network.
My plan was to route signal from 2nd 12Mic to 1st 12Mic and then back to UFX+ for mixing. Is the AVB Switch the culprit or should this not work in the first place. From what I understand I need a switch for the listener/talker stuff to work?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajf5iWZoSt9_vinDf6B … d?e=c6T9Ap
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajf5iWZoSt9_viqST4z … 0?e=4Xh391

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,183

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Slipperman wrote:

Hello,

I may have got things off the wrong foot, can anyone help me to sort things out?

1. Connection from UFX+ with optical Madi as clock to 1st 12Mic. Works brilliantly in terms of both clock and signal
2. Connection between 1st 12Mic and 2nd 12Mic through MOTU AVB Switch. No clock to 2nd 12mic and, apparently, no signal back to 1st 12Mic.
3. Word clock from 1st 12Mic to 2nd 12Mic works, but still unable to transfer signal from 2nd 12Mic back to first 12Mic.

Other network operations work i.e. I can manage the 12Mic through network.
My plan was to route signal from 2nd 12Mic to 1st 12Mic and then back to UFX+ for mixing. Is the AVB Switch the culprit or should this not work in the first place. From what I understand I need a switch for the listener/talker stuff to work?

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajf5iWZoSt9_vinDf6B … d?e=c6T9Ap
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajf5iWZoSt9_viqST4z … 0?e=4Xh391

I only know that a 12mic can route (or bridge) MADI to AVB. It could be the case that it's also possible into the opposite direction from AVB to MADI, but I am not sure.

As you use the UFX+ as main interface I question myself, why you do not simply connect both 12Mic's via MADI to the UFX+?!

Then you wouldn't even require the AVB switch.

And once RME delivers the Auxdevice feature also for the 12Mic as promised then you could remote control the 12Mic via TM FX through MIDI over MADI.

Whether such a nice integration of the 12Mic as Auxdevice into TM FX will also be possible through AVB would be desirable, but as of now such an integration into TM FX through AVB does not exist.

My current assumption why your 2nd 12Mic in AVB context does not work is, that you maybe forgot to route audio from AVB to MADI on the 1st 12Mic which is connected to your UFX+ through MADI.

To use UFX+ as clock master is a valid approach. You can either distribute clock between all devices through WC or alternatively the first 12Mic can learn clock through MADI and the second through either WC (between the two 12Mic) or maybe even through AVB. As AVB is very timing critical I think it should also be possible to get clock through AVB, but on that part I am not sure as I do not use AVB. It could maybe even the case that you might need an AVB controller on AVB side 1st, to be able to define/control AVB audio streams between devices.

If you do not need AVB my strong recommendation is to simplify your setup and to connect all through optical MADI. This will definitively work for two 12Mic (and an additional XTC = 32ch) up to double speed.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,183

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

See also comments in the SOS review. The 12Mic can act as format converter and bridge audio between MADI, AVB and ADAT. But for the control of AVB audio streams between network devices you might need something like an AVDECC controller and this is not included into devices like 12Mic and AVBTool.

Please see here:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/rme-12mic

"A Stream is generated by a source device (often called a ‘talker’), and can be received by any number of destination or output devices (the ‘listeners’). However, the actual signal routing across the network from one to the other is established and managed by a dedicated ‘AVDECC controller’. This controller is typically integrated into one of the devices on the network — RME’s Digiface AVB interface is capable of serving as an AVDECC controller, for example, while the 12Mic and AVB Tool are not."

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2015-06-06
  • Posts: 21

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Hello ramses and thanks for your extensive elaboration.
I guess I was wrong about the AVB Switch having the needed AVDECC capabilities and that is probabaly what is lacking in the system. The reason behind wanting to use AVB was the ease of use when connecting two AVB components that does not sit beside each other in a rack, but spread around in a room in a recording situation.

I will resort to dual coax Madi to connect the Mic12 for the time being and later use a Mac as AVDECC controller at a later stage in the AVB network.

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-12-12 21:18:26)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,183

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Do you know that MADI OM3/4 cables may be up to 2km long between each of the 8+ MADI devices in a ring structure? OM3/4 patch cables "ready for use" are available up to 50m. In between you can have structured inhouse cabling with patchfields at each end/room.
That gives you the desired flexibility to place the preamps and UFX+.
Nevertheless you will need a LAN infrastructure and connect the 12Mic to it if you want to remote manage the devices through Internet browser or the remote management application until Auxdevice support will be available.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2015-06-06
  • Posts: 21

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

ramses wrote:

… you will need a LAN infrastructure and connect the 12Mic to it if you want to remote manage the devices through Internet browser or the remote management application until Auxdevice support will be available.

Yeah, that’s a bummer and it’s also another advantage lost, but I’ll have to use the network or usb for that.

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,183

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Yes IP over USB is also possible. It needed the installation of a special driver under Win7 if I remember right. Possibly also for Win10 needed.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Marc S
  • RME Developer
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2019-06-11
  • Posts: 110

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Hi,

you'll need an external AVDECC Controller, e.g. the open source software Hive (http://www.kikisoft.com/Hive/).

In Hive both 12mics will appear and show their input and output streams. Just connect the streams as needed.
Routing of the channels can be done either in Hive (dynamic mappings), or via the 12Mic's Web UI (which I find more convenient).

9 Reply by Slipperman (edited by Slipperman 2021-12-13 22:51:17)

  • Registered: 2015-06-06
  • Posts: 21

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Marc S wrote:

Hi,

you'll need an external AVDECC Controller, e.g. the open source software Hive (http://www.kikisoft.com/Hive/).

In Hive both 12mics will appear and show their input and output streams. Just connect the streams as needed.
Routing of the channels can be done either in Hive (dynamic mappings), or via the 12Mic's Web UI (which I find more convenient).

Hello Marc, yes I have now made an attempt with a Mac, but I fail to activate the 12Mic devices in the Network Device Browser, NDB, (located in the Audio Midi Setup app).

Each time I try to activate either of the 12Mic devices, the NDB goes blank and after a while the 12Mic Devices re-appear in the NDB again, still unactivated. Still, I can see the 12Mic devices in the avbutil controller (activated through Terminal) e.g. in the AVDECC Connection Matrix, but I can not make a connection between the devices. Also none of the devices appear in Hive.
I assume all this is because I fail to activate the devices in the NDB.

I then noticed that the Network connection, i.e. the Thunderbolt-Internet network service in Network settings, was flickering back and forth between connected and not connected. When I turned off both Mic12, the network connection re-established being stable. As soon as I turned any, or both, of the 12Mics on again, the Network connection failed again. I then suspected the Motu Switch for a while, but a direct connection between one 12Mic and the computer/controller makes the network connection exibit exactly the same behaviour.

So I conclude that the root cause here is that a stable network connection can not be established while AVB device is connected to network. Now, what causes that I haven't got a clue. Perhaps I will try to make an A/B test with a PC with Hive installed.

So, any tips on what may resolve this on mac platform? Or should I go the PC way just for AVDECC? Or should I cave in and buy a Digiface AVB just for AVDECCing?

(As a sidenote I bought som BNC coax and that all works...)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,183

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Slipperman wrote:

(As a sidenote I bought som BNC coax and that all works...)

Why BNC coax ?

With om3/4 fiber cable you would have full galvanic isolation between all devices which is IMHO a desirable goal.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

11 Reply by tdc

  • tdc
  • AD/DA expert
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2017-11-04
  • Posts: 79

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Hi Slipperman,

To my knowledge, only the older generations of Mac hardware support AVB - its a bit of a mess at present as it appears the OS supports it, but only a small set of Thunderbolt Ethernet controllers will support avb audio.

Which Mac were you using for this.

  • Registered: 2015-06-06
  • Posts: 21

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

tdc wrote:

Hi Slipperman,

To my knowledge, only the older generations of Mac hardware support AVB - its a bit of a mess at present as it appears the OS supports it, but only a small set of Thunderbolt Ethernet controllers will support avb audio.

Which Mac were you using for this.

Its an early 2015 Mac Book Pro.
I was kinda hoping that e.g. a Mac Mini M1 would do the work, but are you saying that’s even less likely?

Does anyone have a working solution with computer as AVDECC?

13 Reply by Slipperman (edited by Slipperman 2021-12-14 12:03:03)

  • Registered: 2015-06-06
  • Posts: 21

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

After some fiddeling about I have now successfully managed to establish AVB connection as desired between the 12Mics. My own analysis that I was short of knowlegde in combination with that you need to "restart" the network after changes are being done.
0. The need of a AVDECC controller in the system was a thing I missed badly when sketching the solution. Thought that the AVB switch would to the work...
1. The NDB reference in post 9 relating to the Audio Midi app in Mac should be disregarded. No attempt to activate AVB there should be made
2. The flickering of Network connection in post 9 was resolved by (i think) changing the Clock source for the Mac from Internal to Steam 1 in the avbutil controller
3. I used Hive to connect the talkers to the listeners. Worked just fine. I could also follow the changes in the avbutil controller Matrix and I guess I could also have used the avbutil matrix for that purpuse directly.

I will make some more analysis and provoke and try to resolve errors now that I know things are working as expected. I'm quite happy and learned a lot about the digital domain!

  • Marc S
  • RME Developer
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2019-06-11
  • Posts: 110

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Yeah, correct, don't use the Network Device Browser at the moment.
We already switched over to Milan, which is a specification for Pro Audio, including the AVB/TSN networking standards, AVTP (Audio/Video Transport Protocol) and AVDECC.
Problem is: Some prescriptions are clashing with the current (older) Apple implementation, for example dynamic mappings vs. static mappings. The members of the Milan working group and Apple are aware of this, in fact, if you look at the author's list of the various Milan documents (free to download), you will find names of Apple engineers. So I'm confident the remaining incompatibilities will be resolved soon.
Nonetheless, at the moment, activating Milan compliant devices in the Network Device Browser leads to undefined behaviour and, worse, leaves the Mac's network interface in an undefined state.
So make sure to do a reboot if you accidently ticked the checkbox. Measures described in 1. and 2. shouldn't be necessary on a freshly booted Mac. Another way is to deactivate the AVB/EAV-Mode in adapter settings entirely.

Great to hear that it finally works!

  • Registered: 2015-06-06
  • Posts: 21

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Marc S wrote:

Great to hear that it finally works!

Hello @Marc S

Do you have any tip on where I can read up on how AVB works on a fairly high level?
The thing is that I made a blunt attempt with cold starting my system WITHOUT the AVDECC controller hooked up. Empiri shows that all talkers and listeners seem to remember their interdependencies without the controller being present and the system works as expected. This is clearly super if it is by design. But is that the case that the talkers and listeners remember the last AVDECC configuration or is it just a happy fluke?

Happy New Year!

  • Marc S
  • RME Developer
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2019-06-11
  • Posts: 110

Re: 12mic: No sync or signal through AVB-->Resolved

Slipperman wrote:

Do you have any tip on where I can read up on how AVB works on a fairly high level?

I wish I had... Guess I'll have to write one some time?

Slipperman wrote:

The thing is that I made a blunt attempt with cold starting my system WITHOUT the AVDECC controller hooked up. Empiri shows that all talkers and listeners seem to remember their interdependencies without the controller being present and the system works as expected. This is clearly super if it is by design. But is that the case that the talkers and listeners remember the last AVDECC configuration or is it just a happy fluke?

Yep, by design. AVB has a feature called "Fast Connect" which has an improved version in Milan, an advanced binding mechanism.
Once a listener connection is made (an incoming stream is "bound"), this connection will be restored on restart or, if the talker is disconnected for other reasons, when it's available again.