1 Topic by donmcnevin (edited by donmcnevin 2021-12-13 02:21:51)

  • Registered: 2021-11-15
  • Posts: 9

Topic: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

What is the correct ADI-2 Pro FS Be connector configuration from the Headphone “1/2” and “3/4” front outs to achieve the balanced output I will need to establish a balanced connection with my headphones?

In my case I have Sony MDR-Z1R headphones than can accept a female 3.5mm TRRS balanced output.

I couldn’t find anything specific in the manual although it’s referenced in the specifications and feature set, and I see where to set the options in the device menu.

I’ve looked elsewhere on other forums and haven’t had any luck there either.
Any help in the right direction is appreciated.

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-12-13 05:30:36)

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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

It's described in manual ch 34.6.

See there especially the diagram about advanced balanced phone mode.

On the right hand side of the drawing it's clearly visible that phones outputs 1/2 and 3/4 (TRS) have to be used, where T and R are being used.
You would need a cable
Ph 1/2 - TRS -‐---------------- Mini TRS R
Ph 3/4 - TRS ------------------ Mini TRS L

My recommendation to you:

As your normal stereo cable has a symmetric layout to the left and right side of your phone and the impedance of your phones does not really require a higher volume, you can IMHO save the effort to purchase a special cable separately with that layout which might be expensive.

I doubt that you would hear any difference between balanced and non balanced mode at same listening levels. This topic has been discussed a few time already. Confusion usually arises when people A/B tests because they forget to compare at exactly the same listening levels and in balanced mode the volume is if I remember right 6dB higher and our ears / brain regards louder as sounding better.  On top come other psychoacoustic effects, the expectation that balanced sounds better and this you can usually fully exclude as a blind d test would require a double setup and in a sighted test you can't fully exclude your expectations.

Other aspects

SNR is already on such a high level in unbalanced mode that this is inaudible and if you hear no noise, then you have no problem with noise. A few dB higher SNR will not make the sound better, it will only make "more inaudible" as it already is in unbalanced mode.

Same story with my Audeze LCD-3. It also has a symmetric wiring beginning from the TRS plug in e.g. phones 3/4 up to each of the two drivers. I also use the normal good cables, get an excellent sound and do not need to spend another €300-500 for special cables which have their price tag because balanced cables are "special" and not so often being sold.

I would simply enjoy the ADI-2 Pro and your headphones in unbalanced mode.

BTW the balanced cable that comes with your phones would be much to short for me anyway with only 1.2m. This is way too short and doesn't allow for a flexible placement for listening. The normal cable has nice 3m, that's fine. My recommendation, simply use that and all will be fine.

If you feel better with a balanced cable please do and go ahead. I only wanted to tell you that it is not really needed.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 Reply by beat8000 (edited by beat8000 2021-12-13 05:33:30)

  • Registered: 2019-05-30
  • Posts: 63

Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

I have bought the Dyson Audio RME ADI-2 Pro 4-pin XLR Dual 1/4" TRS Balanced Headphone Cable Adapter × 1. It was rather cheap but it's not available any more.

If you want only one cable instead of an adapter you could order it from https://www.moon-audio.com/black-dragon … le-v2.html for your headphone type and the amplifier connection option Dual 1/4 in TRS Furutech Balanced Male.

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3
  • ning
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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

This is an interesting topic and appear on the forum often.

The kind of connector for adi-2 is pretty uncommon. I only know two other products (one from mytek and the other from matrix audio) use it so there is almost no demand for this cable.

I once contacted an audio cable shop on Ali express and the owner told me doing this cable is not expensive but he can only produce it when the demand is > 100. Maybe people can launch a group buy if there’s enough interest.

In the meantime you can spend an afternoon  soldering by yourself, or just use single ended.

5 Reply by donmcnevin (edited by donmcnevin 2021-12-13 06:10:10)

  • Registered: 2021-11-15
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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

ramses wrote:

It's described in manual ch 34.6.

See there especially the diagram about advanced balanced phone mode.

On the right hand side of the drawing it's clearly visible that phones outputs 1/2 and 3/4 (TRS) have to be used, where T and R are being used.
You would need a cable
Ph 1/2 - TRS -‐---------------- Mini TRS R
Ph 3/4 - TRS ------------------ Mini TRS L

My recommendation to you:

As your normal stereo cable has a symmetric layout to the left and right side of your phone and the impedance of your phones does not really require a higher volume, you can IMHO save the effort to purchase a special cable separately with that layout which might be expensive.

I doubt that you would hear any difference between balanced and non balanced mode at same listening levels. This topic has been discussed a few time already. Confusion usually arises when people A/B tests because they forget to compare at exactly the same listening levels and in balanced mode the volume is if I remember right 6dB higher and our ears / brain regards louder as sounding better.  On top come other psychoacoustic effects, the expectation that balanced sounds better and this you can usually fully exclude as a blind d test would require a double setup and in a sighted test you can't fully exclude your expectations.

Other aspects

SNR is already on such a high level in unbalanced mode that this is inaudible and if you hear no noise, then you have no problem with noise. A few dB higher SNR will not make the sound better, it will only make "more inaudible" as it already is in unbalanced mode.

Same story with my Audeze LCD-3. It also has a symmetric wiring beginning from the TRS plug in e.g. phones 3/4 up to each of the two drivers. I also use the normal good cables, get an excellent sound and do not need to spend another €300-500 for special cables which have their price tag because balanced cables are "special" and not so often being sold.

I would simply enjoy the ADI-2 Pro and your headphones in unbalanced mode.

BTW the balanced cable that comes with your phones would be much to short for me anyway with only 1.2m. This is way too short and doesn't allow for a flexible placement for listening. The normal cable has nice 3m, that's fine. My recommendation, simply use that and all will be fine.

If you feel better with a balanced cable please do and go ahead. I only wanted to tell you that it is not really needed.

Thanks Ramses,

I guess my thought process would be that because I listen to bass heavy music, and often times at higher volumes (-10 to -4) and because the Z1R’s are low impedance, bass heavy phones, that I would probably make use of the (doubled/quadrupled?) increased power available and decrease the chance of introducing distortion into audio, by not calling for it to hit hard when too little overhead power is available.

  • Registered: 2021-11-15
  • Posts: 9

Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

ning wrote:

This is an interesting topic and appear on the forum often.

The kind of connector for adi-2 is pretty uncommon. I only know two other products (one from mytek and the other from matrix audio) use it so there is almost no demand for this cable.

I once contacted an audio cable shop on Ali express and the owner told me doing this cable is not expensive but he can only produce it when the demand is > 100. Maybe people can launch a group buy if there’s enough interest.

In the meantime you can spend an afternoon  soldering by yourself, or just use single ended.

Thanks man. It looks like in my case I can just run straight trs out to trs in from each amp channel to each headphone channel. I’m interested in trying this setup out with some bass heavy tracks.

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-12-13 08:42:53)

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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

donmcnevin wrote:
ramses wrote:

It's described in manual ch 34.6.

See there especially the diagram about advanced balanced phone mode.

On the right hand side of the drawing it's clearly visible that phones outputs 1/2 and 3/4 (TRS) have to be used, where T and R are being used.
You would need a cable
Ph 1/2 - TRS -‐---------------- Mini TRS R
Ph 3/4 - TRS ------------------ Mini TRS L

My recommendation to you:

As your normal stereo cable has a symmetric layout to the left and right side of your phone and the impedance of your phones does not really require a higher volume, you can IMHO save the effort to purchase a special cable separately with that layout which might be expensive.

I doubt that you would hear any difference between balanced and non balanced mode at same listening levels. This topic has been discussed a few time already. Confusion usually arises when people A/B tests because they forget to compare at exactly the same listening levels and in balanced mode the volume is if I remember right 6dB higher and our ears / brain regards louder as sounding better.  On top come other psychoacoustic effects, the expectation that balanced sounds better and this you can usually fully exclude as a blind d test would require a double setup and in a sighted test you can't fully exclude your expectations.

Other aspects

SNR is already on such a high level in unbalanced mode that this is inaudible and if you hear no noise, then you have no problem with noise. A few dB higher SNR will not make the sound better, it will only make "more inaudible" as it already is in unbalanced mode.

Same story with my Audeze LCD-3. It also has a symmetric wiring beginning from the TRS plug in e.g. phones 3/4 up to each of the two drivers. I also use the normal good cables, get an excellent sound and do not need to spend another €300-500 for special cables which have their price tag because balanced cables are "special" and not so often being sold.

I would simply enjoy the ADI-2 Pro and your headphones in unbalanced mode.

BTW the balanced cable that comes with your phones would be much to short for me anyway with only 1.2m. This is way too short and doesn't allow for a flexible placement for listening. The normal cable has nice 3m, that's fine. My recommendation, simply use that and all will be fine.

If you feel better with a balanced cable please do and go ahead. I only wanted to tell you that it is not really needed.

Thanks Ramses,

I guess my thought process would be that because I listen to bass heavy music, and often times at higher volumes (-10 to -4) and because the Z1R’s are low impedance, bass heavy phones, that I would probably make use of the (doubled/quadrupled?) increased power available and decrease the chance of introducing distortion into audio, by not calling for it to hit hard when too little overhead power is available.

Still no need for balanced ... you only need to activate hi-power see manual ch 8.1. But then careful with your ears...
You do not need to worry about distortion, maybe only whether you are listening too loud not that you damage your ears.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 Reply by MC

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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

ning wrote:

This is an interesting topic and appear on the forum often.

The kind of connector for adi-2 is pretty uncommon. I only know two other products (one from mytek and the other from matrix audio) use it so there is almost no demand for this cable.

I once contacted an audio cable shop on Ali express and the owner told me doing this cable is not expensive but he can only produce it when the demand is > 100. Maybe people can launch a group buy if there’s enough interest.

In the meantime you can spend an afternoon  soldering by yourself, or just use single ended.

You missed Tascam, and maybe also the fact that the result within TRS is a de-facto standard on all better audio interfaces for line level signals.

Due to the fact that the formerly 'acceptable' sources are no longer offering this adapter cable we have made it ourself., dual TRS to 4-pin XLR, available via our distributor network, and costs (AFAIK) below 100 $.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-12-13 09:24:21)

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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

BTW you should also have a look into this thread where people started the effort to document thresholds for different parameters, when they become audible.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … ost-127757

This question arose around questions like whether different DAC chips differ in sound or have something like a signature sound. Common spirit in the discussion was that the quality of these converter chips is so high that any audible differences (in properly led blind tests) would mean, that something in the complete design of the device would be either flawed or used at will to maybe create something like a special sound by using e.g distortion. Otherwise good dac chips should work transparent.

If you compare the thresholds with the measured technical data of your RME device then you should see that your ADI-2 DAC / Pro has such good values that a few dB SNR more or less or such low differences in THD (whether you use balanced or not) should not bring any audible better sound.

For me personally it's not important whether you follow my advice or not, I only want to give you a chance to estimate, how important this is for better sound or not.

And please become not fooled by psychoacoustic when performing comparisons later. Whatever you compare needs to be exactly with the same volume levels. And it will become hardly doable to switch cabling and settings quick enough to meet around 200ms max switching time when doing AB testing and because it's a sighted, not a blind test, where your bias, that balanced sounds better, influences your perception.
You should at least know, what the challenge is when performing tests..

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

Most headphones can be made into balanced. IF u can dissasemble(without breaking it), and solder onto it a new cable. It can be tricky to solder the leads to the driver though. Maybe you can locate someone to do it, some repair shop or an electronics student. From the diagram in the manual you can see the balanced connection is wired like a loudspeaker. (+-/+-) unbalance headphone is (+/-/+) negative is shared ground)So you will need two, two lead cables. Often the copper in a headphone cable is superthin and also has some insulating laqer applied, making it almost impossible to solder correctly. Just change the cable altogher.
The parts for the adapter can be found on the web. Thomann has bulk headphone cable and quality connectors.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_
  • ning
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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

MC wrote:

Due to the fact that the formerly 'acceptable' sources are no longer offering this adapter cable we have made it ourself., dual TRS to 4-pin XLR, available via our distributor network, and costs (AFAIK) below 100 $.

I personally don't want to spend ~$100 on a balanced cable...
On the other hand, factories in China can do it much cheaper (<$20) in good quality. they just want enough volume to go.

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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

ning wrote:
MC wrote:

Due to the fact that the formerly 'acceptable' sources are no longer offering this adapter cable we have made it ourself., dual TRS to 4-pin XLR, available via our distributor network, and costs (AFAIK) below 100 $.

I personally don't want to spend ~$100 on a balanced cable...
On the other hand, factories in China can do it much cheaper (<$20) in good quality. they just want enough volume to go.

It's a bargain... other ppl pay up to €*00 for audiophile USB cables ;-)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

13 Reply by beat8000 (edited by beat8000 2021-12-13 12:11:52)

  • Registered: 2019-05-30
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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

I have expensive cables e.g. pure silver Loudspeaker cable and recently I also bought Star-Quad highend cables to connect my subwoofer and the studio monitors but no audiophile USB cable. I think it's not necessary because the transmission is asynchronous and ASIO transfer is bitperfect anyways wink

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3
  • ning
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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

well even if I believe in expensive cables my wife won't allow me.

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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

ning wrote:

well even if I believe in expensive cables my wife won't allow me.

My wife would tie me down and beat me with them big_smile

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

16 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-12-13 13:32:18)

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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

donmcnevin wrote:

... because I listen to bass heavy music, and often times at higher volumes (-10 to -4) and because the Z1R’s are low impedance, bass heavy phones, that I would probably make use of the (doubled/quadrupled?) increased power available and decrease the chance of introducing distortion into audio, by not calling for it to hit hard when too little overhead power is available.

The Sony MDR Z1R has a nominal sensitivity of 100 dB SPL @ 0.001W input power.
ADI-2 Pro UNBALANCED, at a setting of -4 dBr, does delivers 0.34 W into you ‘phones.
This equals 153 dB SPL, same loudness like a gunshot from close distance.

Probably the ‘phones are heavily clipping at that level, but still:
You’re about to deafen youself within minutes with such volume levels!

Be warned, be careful, hearing cannot be repaired!

KaiS's Website

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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

ning wrote:

well even if I believe in expensive cables my wife won't allow me.

"Even if" hehe, understood! And I can reassure you, that you have not missed anything ;-)

I have spent several hours with my wife to find out any differences in sound with our high-end HiFi between simple 4mm copper cables and various cables of up to €1200 (pffff for 3m cables with batterie and a device to "align the atoms into a more audiophile position" and what not).

Afterwards, my wife and I agreed that neither of us could perceive any clearly discernible improvement in the sound image and that this extra price for the cables is not justified besides perhaps the nicer look.

With different amp / box combinations, however, you can get significant audible differences, there the money is better spend.

Here my wife was also involved into rehearsals for crosschecks in terms of sound quality and to understand, what it brings more. The other very important point was to get a design so that big speakers integrate better into the living room.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: Correct configuration for balanced headphone output

To be not concluded in another episode..

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_