1 (edited by antonjazzsax 2021-12-15 12:06:10)

Topic: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

Hello dear forum members.
I might be lacking some basic knowledge here, but I hope someone can help me with this.

We are working on the large project of preserving some 400+ audio recording from the 90s and early 2000 made onto the DAT cassettes.

So this is all legacy hardware that we are using

2x Sony PCM R-500 DAT recorder (with spdf coaxial i/o)
1x Sony DTC670 DAT recorder (with adat optical i/o)

3x Multifaces

All Multifaces are bult into the same computer using three descreet PCI cards and are correctly synced via BNC cables, with one of the multifaces providing the master clock.

Under these settings, if I connect DAT players via spdf coaxial cables, the SyncCheck status shows "Lock" for each spdf input and the SPDF LED of each multiface unit is blinking evenly.

So my main question is:

- Will this "Lock" status provide an error free recording of the audio from DAT recorders into the DAW if I'm using three units at once?


It doesn't seem to be possible to "slave" DAT recorders to the Multifaces, or at least there is no visual reference, that this has happened if I connect the spdf cable form rme's spdf output to the spdf input of the DAT player (hoping that it would receive the clock signal this way).

the only other option I seem to have is to build all three multifaces into separate desktops and always choose the SPDF input to be the clock master in the HDSP settings.

Second question I have is:

Some of the cassettes were recorded at 32k sample rate and so if I select the spdf in for clock source, the sample rate of the Multiface is actually changes to 32k.
So:
Is it a problem if multiface provides the clock, but its sample rate is 48k and not 32k?
Particularily if two or three cassettes with different sample rates are recorded at the same time onto the same computer (like one with 32k and two others with 48k) under the setup described above.

In the technical reference about syncing in pretty much every old and new RME interface manual I find following information:

"Unfortunately, LOCK does not necessarily mean that the received signal is correct with respect
to the clock which processes the read out of the embedded data. Example [1]: The Multiface is
set to 44.1 kHz internally (clock mode Master), and a mixing desk with ADAT output is connected to input ADAT1.
The corresponding LED will show LOCK immediately, but usually the
mixing desk's sample rate is generated internally (also Master), and thus slightly higher or lower
than the Multiface's internal sample rate. Result: When reading out the data, there will frequently be read errors
that cause clicks and drop outs.
Also when using multiple inputs, a simple LOCK is not sufficient. The above described problem
can be solved elegantly by setting the Multiface from Master to AutoSync (its internal clock will
then be the cloc k delivered by the mixing desk). But in case another un -synchronous device is
connected, there will again be a slight difference in the sample rate, and therefore clicks and
drop outs."


This makes me wonder if I have to actually separate multifaces and build them into three different computers and make DAT players a clock master for each one of them.

Thank you very much

2 (edited by ramses 2021-12-15 12:38:07)

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

You can only use one clock rate / clock master in a computing environment.
The DAT recorder can usually only be clock master.
A more flexible setup would be the combination of three ADI-2 Pro FS R BE with or without a RME recording interface in front of it.

As the recordings do not need to be sample exact you could connect all three ADI-2 Pro through USB without synchronising them.

The DAW could access all three ADI through USB as they all use the same ASIO driver and you record in parallel to three stereo tracks.

The ADI-2 Pro has a built-in SRC (sample rate converter), so each of the DAT recorder can playback audio with the sample rate as needed.

The SRC converts it then to the sample rate that you use in your DAW project which will be the highest of your DAT recorders = 48 kHz.

Higher is not needed as upsampling doesn't deliver any higher quality. The quality can't become better than what the source material provides.

Unfortunately three ADI-2 Pro aren't cheap but you can keep them to 1st of all save time for the archiving process and to integrate them later into your multiface based setup or to also use them in front of your Hifi. With a toslink switcher you can make it to your central da converter in front of your high end hifi as I did. Or you can use adat or aes cabling to connect your hifi as monitor b or to make your pc to a nice player with musicbee to play lossless audio. You can remote control musicbee through a plugin and then via WiFi by using an android app.

Or you sell them later, expect to still get around 80% of street price if they are merely used and still have warranty.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

This might be a case for analogue as the universal digital audio connection. Just connect the dats analogue outs and record them with 1 multiface. There will be no quality loss since the 16 bit dats are inferior to the multiface.
Really don't be to anal about these things. On top of that then the 32khz files will be no issue either.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

Good alternative idea vinark :-) The additional da ad conversion should not hurt too much and would fully exclude the need for SRC.

I proposed my solution under the impression that they prefer digital data transfers without da/ad conversion in between (maybe because of the quality or value of the DAT recordings).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

ramses wrote:

Good alternative idea vinark :-) The additional da ad conversion should not hurt too much and would fully exclude the need for SRC.

I proposed my solution under the impression that they prefer digital data transfers without da/ad conversion in between (maybe because of the quality or value of the DAT recordings).

Your reply was perfect! It is just that since digital, we became a little obsessed (at least some of us) with perfection...including bit perfect. I have used dat for years and it is 16 bits (44 and 48khz) and 12 bits, non linear with 32 khz. It might be better to do the last one analogue anyway, since I don't expect the src the cover non linear conversion. Or maybe the 32khz outputs 16 bits while it recorded 12 bits. No idea. It sounded fine btw.
The AD converters of dat where noisy enough not to need dither.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

ramses wrote:

You can only use one clock rate / clock master in a computing environment.
The DAT recorder can usually only be clock master.
...

Thank you for your response ramses. So did I get it right;
the only error-proof way to transfer digital audio data from the DAT player is to make it a clock master?

I'm just curious, if the "Lock" status doesn't mean that it's clock synced, what is it good for? I mean recordings with the  Lock status that I've made so far didn't sound terrible to me, but i did notice some digital artifacts here and there.

Thank you for your solution idea. Unfortunately I think this will not really match our financial plan at the moment.

On the other hand the recordings are important and valuable enough to try to capture them without the quality loss.
It's more or less our job to archive them in their original state as much as possible therefore  I would try to make a clean digital transfer if i have a choice.
Also we do have some spare old Motherboards with pci slots lying around and definitely enough computers to execute the job even if it would be slightly less convenient. But it doesn't matter that much. I just wanted to know if it's necessary to have a different sync solution in the first place.

7 (edited by antonjazzsax 2021-12-15 14:52:40)

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

vinark wrote:

This might be a case for analogue as the universal digital audio connection. Just connect the dats analogue outs and record them with 1 multiface. There will be no quality loss since the 16 bit dats are inferior to the multiface.
Really don't be to anal about these things. On top of that then the 32khz files will be no issue either.

Thank you vinark. That's good to know. I think I will do a listening test and compare A/B to see if I can perceive any quality loss worth being fussy about.

Actually I thought that every conversion stage always degrades the quality slightly but i guess for the practical purposes it might not matter, if both DA and AD conversion is done with the good converters. I also thought that the loss might be due to DATs DA conversion rather then due to  RMEs AD conversion.

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

Or do it one by one and learn clock from DAT.
In the RME driver settings clock source = ADAT or optical (don't know how this is named in your driver).
You will loose some time but will reach your goal to have digital audio transfer without any conversion in between.
If you could get temporary built two more PC's then you can again fully parallelize the task and have no clock issues or any quality loss.
Getting at least one ADI-2 Pro could save you some time by using it's built-in SRC to automatically convert from any other to 48 kHz, so that all of your recordings are at least in the same format / resolution.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

Lock means the input digital port sees a valid input source, but not synced to the internal clock (it means it could sync if you set it to). Sync means synced lol.

Yes I understand the idea of loss, but loss is not an abstract, but loss of frequency content, distortion or noise. The DATs AD which recorded the music, is that much behind the multiface that there is no more loss, except that what you already lost when recording onto the DAT the first time. And even then the loss was imperceivable IMHO, if recorded at a decent level. Digital gets messy, just as analogue tape if your recording levels are way to low. Tape gets extremely noisy, digital gets quantisation noise, but digital is more forgiving level wise. Quantisation errors are more ugly if you get them, but you will have to record at extreme low levels, extreme, you can try that.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

And Ramses, with 400 plus tapes the differences in time are gigantic. 400 hours or 133 hours is a completely different job.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

11 (edited by ramses 2021-12-15 17:15:07)

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

I re-thought over it.

Am not 100% sure whether it's possible to record from DAT in status "lock".
EDIT: because the multiface sees only a valid clock signal, locks to it, so data transfer is possible, but I fear that it comes to a clock drift, jitter and maybe data loss, what you might hear by clicks and pops, as the multiface doesn't synchronize itself as clock slave, but instead of this works with its own clock.

Therefore a new idea, also because of vinarks last remark (time).

Connect each of the DAT's to one multiface.
The multifaces do not need to be clock synchronisation to each other anymore.
Instead of this each multiface is the clock slave of it's connected DAT recorder acting as clock master.
In the driver settings it's not required to choose the same ASIO buffersize as the three tracks do not need to be sample synchron. I would simply for "symmetry/cosmetic" reasons choose the same asio buffersize. You can take a high value of 1024 or more to minimize the cpu/interrupt load during recording.

Now record 1st the tapes in 48 kHz. You can use all 3 dat recorder in parallel as the DAW can access all of them in parallel through this one ASIO driver. And now each of the three DAT/multiface pairs are properly synched to each other.

At the end process all tapes in 32kHz sample rate.

I hope that it works this way and this should honour all requirements,
- digital transfer
- synced connection between each DAT and Multiface connection and
- saving of time by parallelization.

What do you think of that ???

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

No that will not work in one recording software, only with 3 separate programs one per multiface. They really need to be in sync, otherwise after a while the daw will get it wrong once the buffers are not 100% in sync any more and that is sooner then later.
So lock is not an option and 3 multiface slaves in one program neither. But I believe the OP is considering 3 computers too, that would work ;-).

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

13 (edited by ramses 2021-12-15 17:51:59)

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

Ok, then what about three Global Record instances (RME DIGICheck)? Would keep processing load as low as possible as it's designed not to consume too many resources (only available for Windows).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

Sounds good, but maybe one for MC to be sure

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

15

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

It also won't work with separated DAWs - there is still only one ASIO driver with identical buffers that need to be transmitted synchronously.

Analog is the way to go unless you have a TMS use case (seems not). Digitally the ADI-192 DD converter could be used to record up to for asynchronous sources. Knowing how cheap a computer could be that does not need to operate in lowest latency one could also use four computers (one per MF) and get everything grabbed bit-perfect.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

16 (edited by ramses 2021-12-15 18:43:44)

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

[Deleted]

Amen ;-) Thanks Matthias for involving.

So going analog was a good idea from you vinark.

Then the "expensive" solution with the three ADI-2's and using their SRC only would have worked if they would have been clock synched by using the free AES and ADAT (or coax SPDID) port.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

17 (edited by antonjazzsax 2021-12-15 23:23:01)

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

Thank you for all your replies. It cleared it a lot for me.
I was suspecting, that I probably will have to set DATs as clock masters for clean transfers but wanted to double check with the people who know more than I do about this.

As MC says it is dirt cheap to build an extra computer which is a few years old but more then sufficient for the job. In fact we have almost all the spare parts already, so the added cost would be close to zero.
I would prefer to do it on a single computer otherwise. Not so much because of the added time (it doesn't really matter for me whether three computers are recording one track each, or one PC three tracks at a time) but merely due to a couple minor inconveniences with filling in the documentation protocols and backing up the data. But really not so big of a deal.

vinark wrote:

Yes I understand the idea of loss, but loss is not an abstract, but loss of frequency content, distortion or noise. The DATs AD which recorded the music, is that much behind the multiface that there is no more loss, except that what you already lost when recording onto the DAT the first time. And even then the loss was imperceivable IMHO, if recorded at a decent level. Digital gets messy, just as analogue tape if your recording levels are way to low. Tape gets extremely noisy, digital gets quantisation noise, but digital is more forgiving level wise. Quantisation errors are more ugly if you get them, but you will have to record at extreme low levels, extreme, you can try that.

vinark I double checked the difference between two capturing methods (analogue and digital).
I did percept the small difference in terms of clarity, saturation and a slightly different frequency balance when using analogue outputs.
I think it's not really so much because of the AD stage of the RME, but because of the DA converters and phone/line level amplifiers of the DAT players, which are involved  to provide analogue signal to their outputs.
Being  hardware from the 80s-90s I can imagine they probably are not as clean and saturation-free as the ones the modern interfaces like RMEs have.
Strictly speaking we have to archive these recordings without any alteration, as much as possible, even though for most practical purposes the difference would be minimal.

Thank you for all the info and advices.

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

If I recall it correctly, the Sony PCM R500 can be clocked externally to the digital input. (Maybe I am wrong, it has been a long time)
So given that the sample rate is the same on all three DAT Recorder you could make the DTC670 DAT as clock master, then sync via SPDIF coax to  both R500. (maybe solder some Y-cabling)
All 3 outputs should now be in sync and could be recorded into one DAW on three stereo tracks.

BUT: If it happens that at one point in the tape the formatting is lost and subsequently the sample rate as well, then you would get dropouts on all three Tracks.

Georg

Re: Correctly syncing three Multiface units with the DAT players

Interesting to know. I tried, but I couldn't find any exact information about that in the Manual or elsewhere. Seems like a rather adventurous attempt.to try. The information about these decks is very scarce. Also many tapes we have are far from being perfect, not to mention the spliced ones.