• Registered: 2022-01-14
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Topic: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Hello,

I’m about to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS  R BE for an hifi use.
I read the manual and searched in the forum.
But I would feel more confortable if I could get confirmation of what I think is the right setup..

My chain is :
I have 2 digital sources :
Source 1 : Mac mini with Roon > USB > RME ADI 2
Source 2 : TV > Toslink > RME ADI 2

I have 2 outputs :
Output 1 : RME ADI 2 > Digital for a pair of Genelec 8351. No need for EQ or loudness.
Output 2 : RME 2 ADI 2 > Analog for headphones. Being able to use the EQ and the cross feed for this output.

Functionalities expected :
1/ Being able to use the remote control to switch between the 2 sources
2/ Output 1 gets muted when I use the headphones (output 2)

1st question :
Is this the right setup ?
- BASIC MODE - DAC
- SETUP - Options - Device Mode / DSD - Dig Out Source Main Out

Then I should be able to :
- Sources switching can be controlled the remotely.
- EQ and cross feed can be setup for the headphones
- Digital output automatically muted when headphones are plugged.


2nd question :
Which volume is it better to use in the chain : Roon (and TV) / RME ADI 2 / Genelec ?
They are all digital volume.

I can’t figure out how to decide and what are the pros and cons of each scenario.
For convenience, it would be nice to use the RME ADI 2 volume.
My first idea would have been to go at 0 db for the sources and the Genelec and use the RME ADI 2 to adjust the volume.
But does it make sense and is it optimal ?

Thank you for your help,
Frédéric

PS :
By the way, it looks like a very smart piece of hardware and software.
It reminds me of my studies, 30 years ago, for an MS in Digital Signal Processing.
At the time, things were much, much, less sophisticated…(in hardware and in algorithm)

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-01-15 14:39:26)

  • ramses
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

For lossless transfer of digital audio data keep the digital volume at 0dB.
I would let the ADI-2 Pro perform D/A conversion because of it's 4 ref level design and autoreflevel feature.
Keeps SNR/dynamics high over a broad range of 20 dB.
Ideal would be to use an attenuator, so that you can use output levels close to the 0dB of the DAC by this you make best use of auto reflevel and the 4 reference levels. Autoreflevel automatically picks the best reference level honoring output level, B/T, PEQ, dynamic loudness settings.
You can use the remote to switch input channels between coax, optical, usb.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2022-01-14
  • Posts: 34

Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Thank you for the (quick) answer.

I'm not sure I understand correctly.

I would let the ADI-2 Pro perform D/A conversion because of it's 4 ref level design and autoreflevel feature.
Keeps SNR/dynamics high over a broad range of 20 dB.
Ideal would be to use an attenuator, so that you can use output levels close to the 0dB of the DAC by this you make best use of auto reflevel and the 4 reference levels. Autoreflevel automatically picks the best reference level honoring output level, B/T, PEQ, dynamic loudness settings.

>> Do you mean I should use the analog input of my Genelec and get the Genelec speakers perform another AD / DA conversion ?
So it would be like :
Roon (volume @0db) > RME ADI 2 > DSP (volume autoref) > DA > (volume autoref) > Analog AES Output > Attenuator > Analog Genelec input > AD > DSP (volume @0db) > DA > Speaker

instead of
Roon (volume @0db) > RME ADI 2 > DSP (Volume) Digital AES Output > Digital Genelec input > AD > DSP (volume @0db) > DA > Speaker

Is that correct ?

If so, I have to read more carefully what the authored is because I wasn't keen for a DA / AD / AD chain of conversion. A lot of conversion.
The autoref must be quite efficient. I guess you think it is worth the double conversion.

  • KSTR
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Your proposed setup of the ADI-2 Pro will work (with MUTE TRS/3/4 - ON).

Using analog output to feed the Genelecs doesn't make too much sense, the double conversion. Auto-Ref Level buys you nothing here as the speaker's AD and DA will always run on suboptimal levels. With digital feed, only the DAC runs suboptimal levels. There is one gotcha, though, the Genelecs will resample their digital input in all cases to fixed rates. When using the analog in this digital resampling is avoided.

I'd just try out what works best wrt sound and noise.

  • Registered: 2022-01-14
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Thank you.

Well, things do not sound so obvious (at least for me).
@Ramses Maybe that Ramses has another point of view on this matter.

I don't know if it is on purpose but nobody recommended me to stick with Genelec internal volume rather than RME ADI 2 volume.
I still cannot clearly see what the optimal solution is in termes of volume (where to put the volume in the chain : rather Roon, RME ADI 2 or Genelec).

But I understand that both setup can work.

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-01-15 19:43:19)

  • ramses
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

EDIT:

My personal strategy is to keep the signal as long as possible digital and then to perform the D/A conversion with the ADI-2.
If your monitors have a DSP with room correction software then this might change your priorities.

After re-thinking:
- GLM will most likely work with an incoming analog or digital signal
- what sounds better is difficult to say and would need proper blind testing, but this creates efforts ...
  You would need to build this up twice and support quick A/B changes

Szenario 1)
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE----------AES----------> (Digital IN) Genelec D/A-L-
                                                              (Digital Through)---AES--> (Digital IN) Genelec D/A-R-
Szenario 2)
ADI-2 Pro--D/A+------------Analog-------> (Analog IN) Genelec [A/D DSP D/A] -L-
                       +------------Analog-------> (Analog IN) Genelec [A/D DSP D/A] -R-


to 1) You can use at least dynamic loudness at the ADI-2 Pro's AES output.
        Then it also must be possible to use the RME remote for volume control.

to GLM: Not sure whether volume control over Genelec has the same comfort
and whether you need to buy additionally GLM software, network connector, vol controller, measuring mic, .. separately.

Check whether you will get the latest GLM 4.1.
DE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-4414ssM3o
EN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jl_Qy3G-jA
EN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L65aI67rt3I

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

7 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-01-15 17:52:17)

  • KaiS
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

FH1504 wrote:

I don't know if it is on purpose but nobody recommended me to stick with Genelec internal volume rather than RME ADI 2 volume.

Are you using the GLM software for Genelec’s internal volume control or do you have a hardware controller?
Depending on your situation software only might be a bit uncomfortable - or not.

Quality wise Genelec internal is the best solution, but I guess you don’t hear much of a difference (if at all) when using ADI-2’s Volume Control, as long as you stay within 20-30 dB from full scale for “normal” listening.

This would mean,
• set ADI-2 to -20 dB,
• then pre-set the Genelecs to a reasonable volume level for normal listening.

FH1504 wrote:

I still cannot clearly see what the optimal solution is in termes of volume (where to put the volume in the chain : rather Roon, RME ADI 2 or Genelec.

Genelec only,
or Genelec + ADI-2 Pro, see above.

Not Roon.

KaiS's Website

  • Muffin
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

ramses wrote:

For lossless transfer of digital audio data keep the digital volume at 0dB.
I would let the ADI-2 Pro perform D/A conversion because of it's 4 ref level design and autoreflevel feature.
Keeps SNR/dynamics high over a broad range of 20 dB.
Ideal would be to use an attenuator, so that you can use output levels close to the 0dB of the DAC by this you make best use of auto reflevel and the 4 reference levels. Autoreflevel automatically picks the best reference level honoring output level, B/T, PEQ, dynamic loudness settings.
You can use the remote to switch input channels between coax, optical, usb.

This is what I do for my Genelec 8330A (has DSP same as the OPs 8351) but using the ADI-2 DAC FS.

He does not need an attenuator as the GLM volume setting is the same as input sensitivity adjustment with 0 corresponding to -6 dBu having an SPL of 100 dB at 1 meter distance. After setup he can disconnect the GLM Kit as volume is controlled by the ADI-2 with AutoRef levels enabled, along with other features like Dynamic Loudness.

As for me, I doubt I could hear any difference between digital and analog input on the 8330A, so I went with the ADI-2 DAC FS that is much cheaper than the Pro.

  • Muffin
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

ramses wrote:

Maybe more comfortably comparing to use the controller from Genelec where I do not know whether its bundled together with the monitors or whether you need to pay extra for GLM, controller, measuring mic ...

He will have to buy the GLM Set (controller+mic+software) to have the best out of the 8351 that includes room EQ but also various settings like standby time and volume level. The kit cost 309 Euro on thomann.de

I don't have the GLM remote myself, but there are one that is wired and one that is wireless.

  • Registered: 2022-01-14
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Thank you for our contributions.

One piece of information :
I have the GLM kit and use the Genelec internal DSP for room correction.
I have the wireless Genelec volume remote control

The Genelec remote control is OK. But it only controls the Genelec speakers’ volume. It can’t control sources switching, headphones volume, etc. That is why the RME ADI 2 remote control sounds like a great option.

My understanding so far is that my original idea seems to be the preferred one :

_______________________________________________________
Roon (volume @0db) > RME ADI 2 > DSP (Volume + other DSP options) > Digital AES Output > Digital Genelec input > DSP (volume @0db + room correction) > DA > Speaker

The set-up is :
- BASIC MODE - DAC
- SETUP
- Options - Device Mode / DSD - Dig Out Source Main Out
- MUTE TRS/3/4 - ON

Then I should be able to :

- Sources switching can be controlled remotely.

- EQ and cross feed can be set up for the headphones

- Digital output automatically muted when headphones are plugged.
_______________________________________________________


@KaiS Thank you for pointing me out a recommended level (-20db).

I’m still not theoretically clear with the effect of having the volume in the RME ADI 2 rather than Genelec.
Case 1
The volume is set at 0 db in the RME.
The volume is set at, let’s say, at -20db in the Genelec.
The noise level would be :
(the noise level of the RME noise level is attenuated by 20 db) + (the Genelec noise Level). Basically, I end up with the Genelec noise level.

Case 2
The volume is set at 0 db in the Genelec.
The volume is set at, let’s say, at -20db in the RME.
The noise level would be :
(the noise level of the RME noise level) + (the Genelec noise Level).
I loose the attenuation of the RME ADI 2 noise.
Therefore if the RME ADI 2 noise floor is about the same as  the Genelec’s , I lose 3 db max. which is too not much vs Case 1 as long as we are talking about low noise level.
If the Generic’s noise level is significantly lower than I lose a lot but I’m not sure it is audible if the RME ADI 2 has a good noise level.
If the Genelec noise level is higher than the RME ADI 2, then it is not much of a problem. It is the Genelec’s noise that I will hear in every case.

Does it sound correct ?

Therefore, the set-up Digital input > RME > DSP > DA > Analog AES Genelec > AD > DSP > DA > Speakers, theoretically, just introduce one more step (the DA / AD conversion) but the logic remains the same, I believe.

  • Registered: 2022-01-14
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

One more thought :
Therefore, the set-up Digital input > RME > DSP > DA > Analog AES Genelec > AD > DSP > DA > Speakers, theoretically, just introduce one more step (the DA / AD conversion) but the logic remains the same, I believe.

Except if the noise level is lower in that case than with a regular RME ADI 2 digital output (the auto ref system, <hich I haven't look at yet).

  • Muffin
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

FH1504 wrote:

One more thought :
Therefore, the set-up Digital input > RME > DSP > DA > Analog AES Genelec > AD > DSP > DA > Speakers, theoretically, just introduce one more step (the DA / AD conversion) but the logic remains the same, I believe.

Except if the noise level is lower in that case than with a regular RME ADI 2 digital output (the auto ref system, <hich I haven't look at yet).

The AutoRefLevel feature is for the analog out only and is not relevant for digital out. It helps by having a higher SNR over a wider range for volume level set by the ADI-2, but on the Genelec you should set a low enough volume (via GLM) so that max volume from the ADI-2 will not result in a too loud volume.

This is what I do with my Genelec monitors where GLM volume level is -25 for my desktop setup. I doubt I would be able to discern any audible difference between analogue and digital input.

13 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-01-16 17:28:27)

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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Prelimary: if you don’t hear noise you don’t have a noise problem!

My suggested audio chain is all digital except for Genelec’s DA-converters.
This way you maintain Genelec’s self-noise of (spec’ed) only 5 dBA SPL, probably inaudible if you don’t have very young and healthy ears.

Using either ADI-2 Pro’s OR Genelec 8351B’s volume control does not change the noise situation, as no analog interstep is used that could add noise.


There’s probably NO advantage in bit resolution using Genelec’s volume control, looking at the used DAC’s datasheet (see below).

I even doubt it’s of practical relevance:
if you don’t hear noise you don’t have a noise problem! smile


The Genelec used DA-Converter’s datasheet, look at page 22:

https://www.akm.com/content/dam/documen … asheet.pdf:
The AK4621 includes channel independent digital output volumes...
These volumes are in front of the DAC.
... the volumes can attenuate the input data from 0dB to -48dB and mute. If the extension digital output volumes are enabled, the volumes can attenuate the input data from 0dB to -72dB and mute.

Genelec 8153B internals, see the AKM4621EF DAC chip:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?attachments/203baa5e-0519-45bd-a905-3d093eb26e6d-jpeg.128080/

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  • ning
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Dac noise is almost irrelevant in Genelec’s system flow. The class D amp’s noise is a lot higher. It’s not a NCore level amp that has super low noise, because it is not designed for the HiFi market in the first place.
Even with nothing connected you can still hear the noise. Connecting it with either analog or digital will not make the noise higher. At least with mine that’s the case. So it probably doesn’t really matter which way you use it.

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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

ning wrote:

Dac noise is almost irrelevant in Genelec’s system flow. The class D amp’s noise is a lot higher. It’s not a NCore level amp that has super low noise, because it is not designed for the HiFi market in the first place.
Even with nothing connected you can still hear the noise. Connecting it with either analog or digital will not make the noise higher. At least with mine that’s the case. So it probably doesn’t really matter which way you use it.

Are you relating to the Genelec 8351B - do you have it too - or more like “Genelec in general”?
8351B’s spec’ed selfnoise of 5 dBA SPL doesn’t suppose to get audible noise at all.

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16 Reply by ning (edited by ning 2022-01-17 00:23:25)

  • ning
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Mine is a 8030c and have the same <5dba noise at 1m written in spec.
It is of course audible and you can hear the noise(hiss) the moment you turn it on or play quite music.
My hearing is aging so i don’t think people need superhuman hearing to tell it.

  • Registered: 2022-01-14
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

Thank you,all,for your contributions and this pleasant conversation.

I will go digital all the way up to the Genelec DA converter.
And I also believe what was pointed out : I don’t think there is any audible differences for me…

  • Registered: 2020-06-13
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

ning wrote:

Mine is a 8030c and have the same <5dba noise at 1m written in spec.
It is of course audible and you can hear the noise(hiss) the moment you turn it on or play quite music.
My hearing is aging so i don’t think people need superhuman hearing to tell it.

My #8340a Genelec have no hiss  at all.

I run balanced analogue xlr cables from  my RME Adi-2DAC FS , with a cd transport  as source.

WY

CD Transport>optical>RME ADI-2 DAC FS(AKM)>XLR balanced >GLM software>Genelec Monitors 8340A

19 Reply by ning (edited by ning 2022-01-17 03:00:38)

  • ning
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

> My #8340a Genelec have no hiss  at all. I run balanced analogue xlr cables from  my RME Adi-2DAC FS

Even  with no cables and the 2,3 pins shorted I still hear hiss from 8030C so I'm sure it's not a ground loop issue.
Both speakers have hiss when brand new so I don't think it's a Genelec QC issue.
I think this mostly depends on your listening position. If you close your ears to the speakers, do you hear the hiss?
My listening position is around 1m so it's certainly audible. If I walk to the end of my room (~3.5m from the speakers) the noise almost goes away entirely. Your milage may differ.
Better class D amps have significant lower noise. with NCore and passive speakers, I hear zero noise at 1m away.


If you have 0 noise when turning on your speaker, maybe genelec just put the amp into sleep mode when the ADC or the ISS circuit shows no signal.

  • Registered: 2020-06-13
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Re: About to buy an RME ADI 2 Pro FS R BE / Advice are welcome

ning wrote:

> My #8340a Genelec have no hiss  at all. I run balanced analogue xlr cables from  my RME Adi-2DAC FS

Even  with no cables and the 2,3 pins shorted I still hear hiss from 8030C so I'm sure it's not a ground loop issue.
Both speakers have hiss when brand new so I don't think it's a Genelec QC issue.
I think this mostly depends on your listening position. If you close your ears to the speakers, do you hear the hiss?
My listening position is around 1m so it's certainly audible. If I walk to the end of my room (~3.5m from the speakers) the noise almost goes away entirely. Your milage may differ.
Better class D amps have significant lower noise. with NCore and passive speakers, I hear zero noise at 1m away.


If you have 0 noise when turning on your speaker, maybe genelec just put the amp into sleep mode when the ADC or the ISS circuit shows no signal.

I listened 6 inches away from woofer playing very quiet choral music with no instruments and various dead passages at normal level.  No hiss detectable at all.

My normal listening distance is 2 meters

WY

CD Transport>optical>RME ADI-2 DAC FS(AKM)>XLR balanced >GLM software>Genelec Monitors 8340A