Topic: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Hi!
I have a problem with asio driver and qobuz. When the song change and has different bitrate, also the buffer size  will change in driver resulting in distorted sound...

Working correctly always with 64 buffer but the songs will change it automatically to 32 or 128 and then the sound distort untill I replace 64 in buffer.

It is any way to lock that buffer size?

Tx!

2 (edited by ramses 2022-01-17 14:37:11)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

It's required to have bigger buffers with double / quad speed as the amount of data is two / four times as high.

The proper approach is, that the application becomes fixed to be able to handle sample rate and buffer size changes accordingly like every DAW can do.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

3 (edited by asoka 2022-01-17 14:43:50)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

I do not understand.
My problem is that the buffer size is changed automatically in the madiface settings when the song change and has different bit like 44, 88,96 etc....and when this buffer change automatically the sound start to distort until I put again manually 64 samples.
It is no way to stop this change and fix buffer size to 64?

Also I just uninstalled and reinstalled the driver with no change the pc is strong ryzen 3950x windows 10 no latency problem.

4 (edited by ramses 2022-01-17 14:58:13)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

I explained it already to you, this is normal.
You need to buffer more if the amount/throughput of data is higher (2x or even 4x).

You can check this yourself by watching the configurable minimum and maximum ASIO buffer sizes for single, double, quad speed:
- single speed 44.1 / 48 kHz,   possible ASIO buffersizes from 32 to 2048
- double speed 88.2/96 kHz,    possible ASIO buffersizes from 64 to 4096
- quad speed 176.4 / 192 kHz, possible ASIO buffersizes from 128 to 8192

The application has to properly handle samplerate and buffer size changes like every DAW does.

In the past there were also problems with the Music Player MusicBee when using an ASIO driver.
The author could at least fix the issue with sample rate changes, that didn't work properly. Now they do.

What remains as a problem (what DAWs do not have) that music playback stops if you change ONLY the ASIO buffersize during playback (sample rate stays the same). This still doesn't work.
The buffersize change that happens during sample rate change has been covered, which is sufficient for music playback, as there is no real reason to change buffersizes during music playback.

And I repeat, your application has a problem to interface properly with an ASIO driver and this needs to be fixed by the company behind Qobuz.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

5

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Accordingh to your post Qobuz supports ASIO incompletely. On change of sample rate our driver issues a kASIOResetRequest, which should force the application (the ASIO host = Qobuz) to ask the driver for the current parameters, like the buffer size. This part seems missing in Qobuz. If so then they need to fix that.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

6 (edited by asoka 2022-01-17 15:13:09)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Then the qobuz application is the problem?
From what I see the application change aquatically the buffer as appear in madiface setting interface...then the changed reflected in madiface settings panel is not done properly by app even it is show properly?

Why the song play correctly if I put manually the buffer size ...even small 64...because now it is changed fully correctly?...also I do not need to pause the song only to put manually the buffer and the song stop distorting.

Past days this occurrence of distorting was much more rare...maybe once after 50 songs now after I reinstalled with the new driver this happen after every song...that change bitrate.


Also I discovered that if I change between asio and wasapi in the player then returning to asio, the things start to work correctly a long time...strange
And in asio mode it is the only way for adi 2 dac to change automatically the bit rate...

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

I have exactly the same experience with qobuz on asio and DAC like asoka. In the beginning distorted sound and wrong speed and after switching Qobuz from ASIO to other wasapi and back it works for some time with different sample rates.

I have similar problem with Tidal and wasapi. When Tidal starts device name is "Analog 1+2 (RME ADI-2 DAC)" but it does not work, then device resets internally and name changes to "Analog 1+2" only without (RME ADI-2 DAC) and force volume and Exclusive switches are both off.

It looks like audio device  disappears in the beginning (maybe because of some reset or device recreating) and reappears in a while and then I have to select this "new" output device again in a players. It works this annoying way only with RME MADIFACE device, not with other "home audio" DACs.

With Fireface driver and UCXII both Qobuz and Tidal work correctly without problem. Only Madiface driver is a problem. There must be something wrong inside. If the problem would be in a players then it would be the same on both Madiface and Fireface ASIO. But it is not the same. Again - UCXII works correctly with both Qobuz and Tidal, ADI2 DAC does not.

ADI-2 DAC, Digiface USB, Fireface UCXII, ARC USB, Neumann MA1 aligned monitors

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Yes I think also that it something with drivers. Or they are to strict implemented or had some kind of problem. Also I not encounter this type of problems with previous dac. Another problem it is that for me the dac changing sample rate only in asio...even if I not installing the drivers it will not change sample rate under windows default driver...as per should doing conform rest of informations.

9 (edited by ramses 2022-01-17 22:18:28)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Check with a DAW like Cubase, whether ASIO buffersize changes are possible during playback.
Expect a short interruption of approx 100-200ms.

Then check what happens if you change sample rate in a project.
Wave file will be resampled. Then you can playback again.

If I am not mistaken, then this should be similar what you want to achieve with your application.

If this works with Cubase 10.5 or 11.5 then you have an issue with quobuz.

@RME: would you regard this as a valid check ?

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

10 (edited by asoka 2022-01-18 00:34:12)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

I do not have Cubase or any other DAW music production I use adi 2 dac only for music listening. Now after I changed from asio to wasapi and back to asio it working ok already few hours...why that cold help? at some time it will stop working and distort and I will need again to change to wasapi and back. If I do not change to wasapi it will distort at every song bit change ...if I change to wasapi and then back to asio...it will work correctly a long time. Also why without drivers installed it will not change bitrate according to song...I understand from older posts that should change it if the asio driver was not installed. Also not changing in wasapi exclusive with drivers installed.

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

You can get Demo versions of DAWs. Just an idea, your choice.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

I tried in maschine and the bitrate change work correctly  without sound distortion, even with song playing...

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

With ASIO ? Well then your interfaces firmware and driver seems to be ok.
This comes back to the point that it is most likely, that qobuz has problems with ASIO as MC already stated.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

14 (edited by audafreak 2022-01-18 11:03:06)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Why Qobuz does not have problem playing via Fireface driver, only via Madiface driver. Will you please explain it?
And why Qobuz does not have problems with many other devices - different brands?

ADI-2 DAC, Digiface USB, Fireface UCXII, ARC USB, Neumann MA1 aligned monitors

15 (edited by ramses 2022-01-18 11:45:37)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

EDITED:

Sorry, I can't explain everything wink

But it's important now for him to open a qobuz case to tell those guys about the issue and
MC's assumption what might go wrong, which should save some severe time and point them into the right direction.
(-> https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 5#p181705)

In such cases it's also important to give some positive examples of other well known audio applications, that work without issues with this RME driver and hardware combination to demonstrate, that this is more likely an application issue.

As the devs will (hopefully) know their code they should get an idea quickly, whether they indeed left out some steps when a sample rate change happens. The most critical point here is, that 1st level support hands this over to the devs.

And I would not mix the cases here. It's about finding the root cause here which is very much likely the application
and not to discuss, why the other driver mitigates / hides the problem for whatever reason.

P.S.: maybe use MusicBee for testing, as this product meanwhile does sample rate changes between single, double, quad speed very well. Less efforts to install and test (smaller product).

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

I understand what you want to say. But it means that there is one premise - Madiface driver is perfect and with no bugs/issues/whatever. As a software developer with around 40 years praxes in different systems I can say that no sw is any bug free.
And as a both Madiface and Fireface device user I can say I had several different problems with Madiface playback but no such or similar problems with Fireface. So according me there must be something done better from the user point of view in Fireface. Maybe some exception handling in some strange situation.

I understand it works with many correct players. I think for instance dynamically changing buffers during playback - is it ALWAYS correct/good behaviour?  I understand some home players do not expect it. In pro area it is about latency - keep it the same by changing buffer sizes. In home it does not matter so much. Pro sw has it solved correctly.

I don't think Tidal or Qobuz or any similar company will change these things just because one user complains that his ADI2DAC is not playing correctly if 99,999% of other DACs/users do not have this problem. They have many other more important problems to solve, especially Qobuz win app is buggy and even crashes sometimes. Such a change needs lot of debugging and compatibility testing with other DACs and systems. They will not touch it until bigger number of such problems will appear. I know how it usually works with sw development especially in bigger companies. Small companies or standalone developers can do something in one hour. In big ones the same thing takes even years or never, lost in black hole.

So my wish would be to do something in Madiface the same way as in Fireface. But I understand it can be lot of work. So I am using   mostly UCXII, DAC only for stereo DSD playback.

ADI-2 DAC, Digiface USB, Fireface UCXII, ARC USB, Neumann MA1 aligned monitors

17 (edited by ramses 2022-01-18 13:34:26)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

1. It's not the task of a driver to work around programming mistakes. You would end up in inefficient and bad supportable spaghetti code. We all love RME drivers for their stability and performance. This is only possible with a good, efficient code that sticks to standards and if you need to solve issues, then please by fixing the root cause and not by messing around in/with the driver.

2. If there would be something wrong with the MADIface driver, then you would see issues with all other applications.
But this is not the case. MC already pointed to a much likely issue in application programming and this needs to be evaluated and fixed by qobuz. This also helped me with the same issue in MusicBee approx a year ago.

3. It is of minor importance to debate about why this and that does not lead to problems with another USB driver. Other drivers are simply different, most likely because they use other USB transport modes. Lets better focus on the root cause. Once this has been fixed, then the problem is gone.

Anyhow .. someone who is affected by this problem should now open a case with Qobuz about the problem, giving them the opportunity to analyze the problem and then hopefully fix it. The important things to note are:
- MC's pre-analysis (which solved the same issue already for MusicBee) and
- that it works with other applications without any issues (so MC's analysis is much likely, a general driver issue not).

EDIT: it would also be beneficial to reference the case number here, because then also other affected customers could tell qobuz support to map their case to the existing one. By this the problem gets higher visibility / prio and qobuz support can work more efficiently on it.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Every debate ends always the same way - with axiom: RME drivers are the best/perfect/do not need any change, nothing is better.

I say yes, can be, for pro users with pro studio sw with their special needs.

If you want to use some typical home streaming playback sw like Tidal or Qobuz do not buy RME DAC because those two things are incompatible and will not be compatible in near future and you will face special problems which you cannot solve. Better buy some Chinese DAC with generic TheSycon drivers for 200EUR and it will work perfectly with at least similar quality. By the way lot of RME DAC hifi users already did it successfully what I see around.
Or you can take endless conversation with Tidal and Qobuz support and spend lot of time trying to make it work correctly.
Or do not use Tidal, Qobuz.
There are different choices..

ADI-2 DAC, Digiface USB, Fireface UCXII, ARC USB, Neumann MA1 aligned monitors

19 (edited by vinark 2022-01-18 14:42:27)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Have you tried using a higher buffer size like 1024 or 2048 and then play different SR files. If this fixes it the issue is neither the player or the driver, but the PC itself. If you change buffer size and samplerate a lot is happening in a very short time. Low buffer sizes can go out if sync easily of the PC cant keep up. With cheaper dacs you don't have that low buffer sizes, even with the cheaper pro interfaces  there is some cheating going on. the past there was a company that used 4 buffers of 512 when you set it at 512, so in effect 2048 lol. Or large unmentioned safety buffers.
I hope this fixes it. Low latency is of no importance for audio listening and even a 2048 buffer is very fast, just not enough for live piano playing.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Yes, I have tried bigger buffers with DAC, the same problem. With UCXII (Fireface) no problem even with smaller buffer.

ADI-2 DAC, Digiface USB, Fireface UCXII, ARC USB, Neumann MA1 aligned monitors

21 (edited by ramses 2022-01-18 16:30:36)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

EDIT: corrected wrong quoting

audafreak wrote:

Every debate ends always the same way - with axiom: RME drivers are the best/perfect/do not need any change, nothing is better.

I say yes, can be, for pro users with pro studio sw with their special needs.

If you want to use some typical home streaming playback sw like Tidal or Qobuz do not buy RME DAC because those two things are incompatible and will not be compatible in near future and you will face special problems which you cannot solve. Better buy some Chinese DAC with generic TheSycon drivers for 200EUR and it will work perfectly with at least similar quality. By the way lot of RME DAC hifi users already did it successfully what I see around.
Or you can take endless conversation with Tidal and Qobuz support and spend lot of time trying to make it work correctly.
Or do not use Tidal, Qobuz.
There are different choices..

Sorry, but I will not further participate in such an unobjective discussion with you.
It doesn't help and doesn't bring this further.

Last comment: reminds me a little of the story with Apple and their problems in the USB stack. At first, no one wanted to believe RME, that this could only be fixed on Apple's side. When the matter went through the press after about half a year, Apple was finally able to solve the problem.

You should have a bit of confidence and not always assume something bad.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

22 (edited by ramses 2022-01-18 15:31:20)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

vinark wrote:

Have you tried using a higher buffer size like 1024 or 2048 and then play different SR files. If this fixes it the issue is neither the player or the driver, but the PC itself. If you change buffer size and samplerate a lot is happening in a very short time. Low buffer sizes can go out if sync easily of the PC cant keep up. With cheaper dacs you don't have that low buffer sizes, even with the cheaper pro interfaces  there is some cheating going on. the past there was a company that used 4 buffers of 512 when you set it at 512, so in effect 2048 lol. Or large unmentioned safety buffers.
I hope this fixes it. Low latency is of no importance for audio listening and even a 2048 buffer is very fast, just not enough for live piano playing.

It has already been tested and confirmed back, that the issue does not arise with another software (DAW).
See: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 40#p181740

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

ramses wrote:
vinark wrote:

Have you tried using a higher buffer size like 1024 or 2048 and then play different SR files. If this fixes it the issue is neither the player or the driver, but the PC itself. If you change buffer size and samplerate a lot is happening in a very short time. Low buffer sizes can go out if sync easily of the PC cant keep up. With cheaper dacs you don't have that low buffer sizes, even with the cheaper pro interfaces  there is some cheating going on. the past there was a company that used 4 buffers of 512 when you set it at 512, so in effect 2048 lol. Or large unmentioned safety buffers.
I hope this fixes it. Low latency is of no importance for audio listening and even a 2048 buffer is very fast, just not enough for live piano playing.

Sorry, but I will not further participate in such an unobjective discussion with you.
It doesn't help and doesn't bring this further.

Last comment: reminds me a little of the story with Apple and their problems in the USB stack. At first, no one wanted to believe RME, that this could only be fixed on Apple's side. When the matter went through the press after about half a year, Apple was finally able to solve the problem.

You should have a bit of confidence and not always assume something bad.

Hi Ramsi did you quote the wrong person?
Herzliche Grüße
Vini

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

I just wanted to know why it works with Fireface and not with Madiface. That is all. Answers are for different question. Otherwise I would not continue. But it does not matter for me anymore, let's quit this.

ADI-2 DAC, Digiface USB, Fireface UCXII, ARC USB, Neumann MA1 aligned monitors

25 (edited by ramses 2022-01-18 16:31:46)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

vinark wrote:
ramses wrote:
vinark wrote:

Have you tried using a higher buffer size like 1024 or 2048 and then play different SR files. If this fixes it the issue is neither the player or the driver, but the PC itself. If you change buffer size and samplerate a lot is happening in a very short time. Low buffer sizes can go out if sync easily of the PC cant keep up. With cheaper dacs you don't have that low buffer sizes, even with the cheaper pro interfaces  there is some cheating going on. the past there was a company that used 4 buffers of 512 when you set it at 512, so in effect 2048 lol. Or large unmentioned safety buffers.
I hope this fixes it. Low latency is of no importance for audio listening and even a 2048 buffer is very fast, just not enough for live piano playing.

Sorry, but I will not further participate in such an unobjective discussion with you.
It doesn't help and doesn't bring this further.

Last comment: reminds me a little of the story with Apple and their problems in the USB stack. At first, no one wanted to believe RME, that this could only be fixed on Apple's side. When the matter went through the press after about half a year, Apple was finally able to solve the problem.

You should have a bit of confidence and not always assume something bad.

Hi Ramsi did you quote the wrong person?
Herzliche Grüße
Vini

Oh vinark, I am sorry wink You're right, I mistakenly pasted the previous buffer content..
I assume Ctrl-C didn't work as expected wink

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

26 (edited by asoka 2022-01-24 18:56:01)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Yes, I will try to contact qobuz support. But as audafreak also said I think it is important for RME to try to address this driver modification, I do not think that the driver will broken if it will be done to work correctly also with qobuz, tidal etc. I think that RME will benefit more with happy users that will have a device that will work out of the box without the need to struggle with another company support...and could use the product from the start. Also why not your company officially contact their support..I think it is a quicker way this and beneficial for both companies. Also the automatically changing bitrate will not work even in win 10 with his default drivers...as it is should by your official informations. Only on asio with the drivers installed and then as you see with problems in the major streaming services. I love the adi 2 dac but it is really annoying that after few songs to manually put it on wasapi and then to asio to work correctly. With the previous cheap smsl product I have never this kind of problems. And also I think that the majority of people that buy adi 2 dac will buy it for music listening thru streaming services. Thank you!

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Anastasia (Qobuz)

Feb 1, 2022, 15:00 UTC

Hello,

Thank you very much for your message.

Our tech team is indeed working on improving the app's compatibility with drivers like Asio at the moment.
We don't have a specific time frame yet, but we can assure you that we are working on it and that you will be able to see these improvements in the near future.
We would invite for you to keep your app updated.

Feel free to always recontact us if you have further questions or concerns.

Best regards,
Qobuz Customer Service

Centre d'activité de l'Ourcq, 45 rue Delizy - 93692 PANTIN-CEDEX

28 (edited by Curt962 2022-02-02 00:34:49)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Asoka,

Nice that Qobuz responded to your query.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll once again say that there's an easier way.   Bypassing ALL the computer audio stuff, my ancient Squeezebox devices never had the problems you're experiencing, and more recently, my RPI4 receives Qobuz streams in whatever sample rate they are.   44.1 or 192khz...whatever. Pi sends this to my RME bit-perfect.   No effort on my part. 

Streamers suit my use case quite well, and might seem pointless if you're sitting at a desk with everything piled right in front of you, which I am not. If it means bypassing all of the challenges Computer Audio might offer?  Then I say STREAM!

That said, RPI is the coolest thing, and could move mountains for you!  Tiny little device, about the size of a Cigarette Pack, and quite the little Miracle Worker it is!   For about $100

See this?   That's a Qobuz stream arriving at my RME at 192/24.   How could I possibly not want a Bit-Perfect device that integrates so seamlessly with my RME, AND bypasses all of the computer nonsense?  I want to hear Music..not "configure" things.   Pi does that for me!  Not only that...it shoots HDMI Video to a nice big display that gives me Album Art, Meta data, etc.     I'm totally Sold!


https://i.ibb.co/QryqhZP/20220201-163514.jpg

I'm enjoying it now, and didn't lift a finger!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

29 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-02-02 13:04:57)

Re: Adi 2 dac asio mode qobuz

Curt962 wrote:

Asoka,

Nice that Qobuz responded to your query.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'll once again say that there's an easier way.   Bypassing ALL the computer audio stuff, my ancient Squeezebox devices never had the problems you're experiencing, and more recently, my RPI4 receives Qobuz streams in whatever sample rate they are.   44.1 or 192khz...whatever. Pi sends this to my RME bit-perfect.   No effort on my part. 

Streamers suit my use case quite well, and might seem pointless if you're sitting at a desk with everything piled right in front of you, which I am not. If it means bypassing all of the challenges Computer Audio might offer?  Then I say STREAM!

That said, RPI is the coolest thing, and could move mountains for you!  Tiny little device, about the size of a Cigarette Pack, and quite the little Miracle Worker it is!   For about $100

See this?   That's a Qobuz stream arriving at my RME at 192/24.   How could I possibly not want a Bit-Perfect device that integrates so seamlessly with my RME, AND bypasses all of the computer nonsense?  I want to hear Music..not "configure" things.   Pi does that for me!  Not only that...it shoots HDMI Video to a nice big display that gives me Album Art, Meta data, etc.     I'm totally Sold!


https://i.ibb.co/QryqhZP/20220201-163514.jpg

I'm enjoying it now, and didn't lift a finger!

Curt

Curt, you still need to move your hand and arm to fuel yourself ... with beer smile

Off topic a bit here, I use Apple Music, using an old iPhone with USB connection to streaming, just to get rid of computer controls and troubles that might occur .... wonderful sound reproduced by RME. (at the moment playing Macy Gray's album "Stripped")

Enjoy the Music/Streaming.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen