1 Topic by exponent_of_sock (edited by exponent_of_sock 2022-02-01 16:43:06)

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Topic: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

Hi, all,

I've owned and enjoyed my ADI-2 Pro FS-R for a while now and have been loving it. I'm changing up my system, though, and am having a hard time deciphering the manual. If I'm reading it correctly, this probably won't work, but there may be some factors or alternative configurations I'm not appreciating. Here's the proposed signal path:

Analog In (XLR) --> SPDIF Out (CEDAR Cambridge computer input; live real-time processing)--> SPDIF In --> AES out (Genelec digital active monitors)

If I'm reading the manual correctly, in AD/DA mode, the analog in goes to all digital outs, i.e. both SPDIF and AES. Therefore, the SPDIF in couldn't be ported to AES out because the XLR in is already going there? Any way to make this work, and if not, what would you recommend?

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

Looks like the only mode where you can send different streams to AES and SPDIF outputs is USB multichannel mode.
In all ather modes all digital outputs are tied together.

Since you need the SPDIF in --> AES out only for electrical format conversion you might find a simple hardware unit that does it, basically containing a signal transformer. Assuming you're on SPDIF coaxial, not optical.

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

Thanks for confirming my suspicion. I think I'll probably have to swap my RME for something like a Lynx Hilo, which seems to have much more robust routing. I want to keep everything in one box to maintain the signal quality and minimize conversions. I sometimes use the AD/DA converter for other uses, too, e.g. USB DAC, I don't think it would make sense to try to use a hardware converter.

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

Maybe off-topic to you but my 1st impression and gut feeling...

That would be too many devices manipulating audio for my personal taste. I would simplify the setup.

I can still understand wanting to use Genelec room correction, because it's not always possible to have a room (e.g. a living room) acoustically optimized.

But I would prefer to hear audio as it was produced by the mastering engineer / artist and keep the chain of devices as short as possible. I would rather spend more money for excellent speakers.

My personal preference would also be to keep the ADI-2 Pro as D/A converter and simply connect excellt active monitors or a combination of amp or integrated am and speaker.

Makes it also easier to implement switchable attenuators in cases of level mismatches and to make best use of the ADI-2 Pro's auto reflevel feature to get a range of 20dB with optimized SNR / dynamic by choosing the optimum out of 4 reference levels.

Maybe this helps also in this case or not .. at least something to make some throughts about it. But my intention is not to discuss this "religious" in any way or "to death" .. if you want it this way .. go for it.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-02-01 19:52:59)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

exponent_of_sock wrote:

proposed signal path:

Analog In (XLR) --> SPDIF Out (CEDAR Cambridge computer input; live real-time processing)--> SPDIF In --> AES out (Genelec digital active monitors)

What about integrating the CEDAR PC through USB:

Analog In (XLR) --> USB Out (CEDAR Cambridge computer input; live real-time processing)--> ADI USB In --> AES out (Genelec digital active monitors)

KaiS's Website

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-02-01 19:59:59)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

A recording interface in front of the ADI-2 Pro with TM FX would help to perform the routing part.

Then you can integrate the ADI-2 Pro like shown here: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

Could be an even more flexible solution.

And if you do not need the uniq features (PEQ, dynamic loudnes, auto reflevel, Bittest) and D/A conversion of an ADI-2 DAC or Pro, if routing has priority over all that, then you are possible better of with a RME recording interface and flexibility in routing compared to a Lynx.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

7 Reply by exponent_of_sock (edited by exponent_of_sock 2022-02-01 20:14:28)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

I'll think about the USB solution. It crossed my mind, but not sure it's the most ideal and tidy way of doing it--I already have a USB switch in my setup. I think I'd rather use the optical SPDIF route...I'm not an expert on connections, but I think that's more fast and stable than USB(?)

I didn't really explain the reason I'm going to be using CEDAR: I restore old 78s from the 1920s, and the CEDAR Cambridge system allows for live playback of the mastering process even as a record plays live, e.g. click removal, EQ, phase adjustments. I'd also like to be able to use my turntable without having CEDAR in the mix for casual playback. The AD/DA converter volume knob controls the studio monitors (Genelec 8351b, close to the best and most neutral monitors that exist).

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-02-01 20:21:15)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

IMHO ideal in your situation would be to use a combination of recording interface and ADI-2 Pro.

You could use two different setups with two main purposes

a) to be able to use the Bittest up to the ADI-2 Pro (then the ADI-2 Pro has to be in front of the CEDAR

                       (SRC)<-DAT
                         |
PC ---USB---ADI-2 Pro---AES---UCXII---SPDIF---CEDAR---SPDIF----UCXII----AES----Genelec
|-----bit test-----|
                                       |------- UCX II in standalone mode ----------|

Then you can make use of the ADI-2 Pro to
- perform the so called Bittest to check for end-to-end lossless transfer of audio (this needs to be done in front of CEDAR
- use dynamic loudness even on the AES output when listening to music
- use the SRC if you have maybe also audio sources on e.g. DAT recorder with a fix sample rate

The UCX II has the flexibility for you to allow nice routing between AES and SPDIF and to be able to store the routing in one of the 6 user configs.

b) as the bittest doesn't go anyway up to the D/A converter in the Genelec, use the recording interface as 1st device in the chain:

As the Bittest doesn't go end to end before the D/A conversion and if you want to omit it, you can also change the order of devices: UCX II ---- CEDAR ---- ADI-2 Pro

Signal flow:
PC ---USB---UCX II----SPDIF---CEDAR---SPDIF---UCXII---AES---ADI-2 Pro--AES----Genelec
                                                                                                     |
                                                                                                  (SRC)<-DAT

EDIT: in the 2nd case you can also listen the processed signal (CEDAR) nicely with headphones connected to the ADI-2 Pro and all the nice features of the ADI-2 Pro....

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

9 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-02-01 20:22:42)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

exponent_of_sock wrote:

I'll think about the USB solution. It crossed my mind, but not sure it's the most ideal and tidy way of doing it--I already have a USB switch in my setup. I think I'd rather use the optical SPDIF route...I'm not an expert on connections, but I think that's more fast and stable than USB(?)

I didn't really explain the reason I'm going to be using CEDAR: I restore old 78s from the 1920s, and the CEDAR Cambridge system allows for live playback of the mastering process, e.g. click removal, EQ, phase adjustments. I'd also like to be able to use my turntable without having CEDAR in the mix for casual playback. The AD/DA converter volume knob controls the studio monitors (Genelec 8351b, close to the best and most neutral monitors that exist).

As a studio owner I immediately assumed that you do restauration.

Give USB a try.
Stereo audio doesn‘t need much bandwidth, so even through a switch it should work.
I run 64 audio channels through a single USB2 port of a normal laptop, for live recording with no problem.
The RME BitTest, repeated several times, can proof everything works OK.

KaiS's Website

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

After thinking about this a bit more and seeing the Audio Science Review thread showing that USB is a cleaner transmission medium than SPDIF, I'm on board with the USB solution.

Any recommendations for a USB interface I won't need to upgrade later? I don't need anything too fancy, but it would be nice to have at least four ports to accomodate the CEDAR In/Out in addition to my personal computer and a network-attached storage system. Evidently at least two would need to run simultaneously for the CEDAR system. This is all a bit new to me.

And from the looks of it, this would work in vanilla USB mode on the FS-R?

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-02-01 21:40:43)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

As I said before, an RME recording interface with the excellent TM FX mixer offers the most flexibility in routing. If you want some of the ADI-2 Pro features in addition, integrate them into the solution, if not, leave them out, because the D/A conversion happens somewhere else for you.

Unfortunately, on the product page of the CEDAR Cambridge is difficult to see what options the device offers in terms of digital interfaces do you have a link to this perhaps ? Or do you know what other interface options exist ? AES ? Optical SPDIF ?

I usually prefer galvanic isolation through either optical SPDIF or AES, but otherwise coaxial SPDIF shouldn't be too bad in terms of hum.

If you need a volume control, if you have a Gelelec GLM system, then there is also a volume control as part of this solution, I've seen something like that before, I just can't think of the name.

I do not know your other demand in the studio, but could think of, that a RME recording interfaces with TM FX would be a solid foundation for robustness in terms of audio transfer through USB and flexibility in routing. Maybe also to act as kind of a bridge to other analog equipment in your studio.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 Reply by exponent_of_sock (edited by exponent_of_sock 2022-02-02 00:36:05)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

Sorry if we're talking past each other here; I'm boucing between tasks today, and a lot of this is new info for me. I just ordered the CEDAR Cambridge computer and don't yet have the documentation. Hopefully will have that sometime this week. I know it has some sort of high-end sound card and is a computer and presumably has a bunch of USB ports. There doesn't need to be a PC in the signal flow because the CEDAR computer is also a PC.

I want to keep the audio interface as simple and out of the way as possible. I think the interface needs to be as simple as a USB switch. The RME Digiface looks like it would work for the CEDAR aspects, but it would be nice, too, to have something that takes standard USB connectors, too, rather than just the ADAT ones. I hate to drop 2 grand on a fancy digital interface when all I need it to do is switch USB connections. Of course, though audio quality is of paramount importance, too.

The analog in is from my record player connected to a high-end 78-specific preamp.

The new flow would be something like this:

Analog in --> USB out (CEDAR PC, real time processing) --> USB in (would be nice to have a few other devices connected to the USB input such as my personal laptop and work laptop ) --> AES output to Genelec monitors (I will probably be saving the GLM directly to the monitors)

I looked at the UCXII, and literallly none of its functions apply to what I'm doing. I'm not a recording studio; I'm transferring and restoring two-channel analog. I just need a USB-specific solution for computers. The bit test is a good idea though; I'll give that a shot later when everything is up and running. My transfers are in 96/24.

13 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-02-02 08:36:53)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

USB is bi-directional, so only one connection needed for in/out interfacing.


Googeling about Cedar Cambridge did not reveal much useful informations, and no downloadable user manual, not even a photo from it’s backside.

At this point I guess there’s analog I/O accompanied by any type of SPDIF and/or AES digital audio interfacing.


Digging around revealed this page as most comprehensive information about the soft-, but not so about the hardware.
https://www.cedaraudio.com/products/cam … ager.shtml


Cedar Cambridge seems to be a closed system on a full blown computer, with it’s own monitor, keyboard and mouse connected, with recording and storage capabilities etc., and a dedicated recording software.

If Cedar supports a (Class Compliant, CC) USB Audio Interface is yet to find out, it would be the best solution.


All guesswork, so let’s wait for the real thing to show up.

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14 Reply by exponent_of_sock (edited by exponent_of_sock 2022-02-03 15:48:11)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

The system will be supplied with the RME HDSPe AIO Pro card installed. It has an ADAt interface on the card for 8 channel digital and is supplied with a the following two breakout cables:
1.    RME BO968 digital breakout cable offering 2 channel AES/EBU in/out on XLRs and 2 channel SPDIF in/out on RCA phonos
2.    RME BO9632CMKH analogue breakout cable offering 2 channels in/out on RCA phonos, and a headphone socket.

Haven't had time to fully parse this, but I think I'll still need a USB converter of some type if I stick with the ADI-2 Pro FS R rather than switch to a Lynx Hilo because I want to retain the ability to run the Genelec monitors through the ADI-2 converter rather than the CEDAR PC.

15 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-02-03 17:39:30)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

[ Added some info, pls reread ]

If the Cedar PC is a PC with a RME HDSPe AIO Pro PCIe card built-in, then you can integrate the ADI-2 Pro FS into this setup like I have shown here in my blog: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

Then you have a RME recording interface with TM FX routing capabilities (HDSPe AIO Pro) and can connect the ADI-2 Pro FS in stand-alone mode through AES (then you have ADAT free for other purposes e.g. to get audio from there).
You can additionally connect the ADI-2 Pro FS through USB and install the MADIface driver for operational reasons to be able to perform firmware upgrades at any time.

Complete audio flow: you can get audio from another audio source through ADAT IN of the AIO Pro, process the audio on the Cedar and then send it through AES (AIO pro) to the ADI-2 Pro and further e.g. via AES to Genelec.

The only question is where you want to perform the D/A conversion. Either on the ADI-2 Pro FS or on the Genelecs.
I assume you want to use GLM and that you can use GLM no matter whether audio comes from Genelecs analog inputs or AES.

It might be better / cleaner to connect the Genelecs to the AES output of the ADI-2 Pro, so that you can save an additional AD/DA conversion at the Genelec.

Here an overview how it is possible to place the ADI-2 Pro from this blog article (https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ses-EN-DE/)

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/2849-RME-ADI-2-DAC-Pro-Connection-Diagrams-etc-v003-jpg/

As audio source a recording interface HDSPe AIO (left side of the drawing) and then
- either connection type 4 where you perform D/A conversion on the ADI-2 Pro
- or       connection type 6 where you perform D/A conversion at the Genelec which is connected to ADI-2 Pro by AES which saves one AD/DA conversion.

EDIT: if another PC is your source for audio then you can make that PC to the clock master and configure the Cedar PC with the AIO pro to get the clock (and audio) from e.g. optical SPDIF. The ADI-2 Pro can learn clock from AEs and also the Genelec if you connect it digitally through AES to the ADI-2 Pro.


Other / Main PC or other audio Source (clock master)
  |
  | ADAT/optical SPDIF or AES
  |
ADAT or AES IN
*** AIO Pro (Cedar) + Audio Processing ***
ADAT or AES OUT
  |
  |
*** ADI-2 Pro FS R BE ***
  +-- Option A) D/A conversion - ANALOG OUT (XLR) --------------> Analog IN - Genelec (AD/DA conversion + GLM)
  +---Option B) AES OUT ------------------------------------------------> AES IN     - Genelec (GLM and D/A conversion)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

16 Reply by exponent_of_sock (edited by exponent_of_sock 2022-02-03 17:53:04)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

Thanks. The only source of my audio is a turntable run through a specialty preamp via analog XLR that absolutely must remain in the signal chain. I also sometimes connect personal laptops via USB that play streaming audio.

I prefer to connect the Genelecs via AES and do the conversion at the AD/DA converter.

I think see what you're saying about using an audio/recording interface, but that's needlessly complicated an another unnecessary expense. The AD/DA converter need be the only interface. The only question is how to manage the in/out. I don't think the RME can do what I need it to do unless USB is involved between the CEDAR and the ADI-2 Pro FS R because the SPDIF/AES are always bridged when in AD/DA mode.

I could, I suppose, connect the preamp directly to the CEDAR, but I'd rather not in case I ever want to use it without all the CEDAR business in the signal chain for casual listening.

17 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-02-04 10:01:31)

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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

> I think see what you're saying about using an audio/recording interface,
> but that's needlessly complicated an another unnecessary expense.

You told in posting #14 "The system will be supplied with the RME HDSPe AIO Pro card installed."
I understood you by this comment from you, that you get it as part of the Cedar solution.
This is the recording interface that I mean and which I used in my ASCII drawing nothing additional.
And you or KaiS said, the Cedar solution is like a powerful PC. So it could be possible to use it also as PC, connect your audio sources to AIO Pro and process / route audio towards ADI-2 Pro -> Genelec.
You should maybe talk to the sales representatives of the Cedar solution, tell your current setup and clarify all this per mail and phone call. Ask them about what's the typical way to integrate this solution and tell your surrounding conditions. A drawing might also help them about your current and intended setup/workflow.
We are guessing here a lot, not very efficient.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • KaiS
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Re: Analog In-->SPDIF out/in-->Digital AES Out

exponent_of_sock wrote:

The only source of my audio is a turntable run through a specialty preamp via analog XLR that absolutely must remain in the signal chain.

...how to manage the in/out. I don't think the RME can do what I need it to do unless USB is involved between the CEDAR and the ADI-2 Pro FS R because the SPDIF/AES are always bridged when in AD/DA mode.

Depending on Cedar’s OS USB should be an option, would be the best solution.

exponent_of_sock wrote:

I could, I suppose, connect the preamp directly to the CEDAR, but I'd rather not in case I ever want to use it without all the CEDAR business in the signal chain for casual listening.

If USB doesn’t work, you could use a a secondary preamp output or a Y-splitter to feed the preamp’s analog signal into both ADI-2 Pro AND Cedar Cambridge.

KaiS's Website