1 (edited by borisovonline 2022-02-05 09:26:41)

Topic: Why the AutoSet function was designed to peak level of -6dB?

Hello all!

Maybe it's a stupid question, but.

Why the AutoSet function was designed to peak level of -6dB?

I'm trying to manage with a gain staging right now by recording a guitar. All over the internet (especially oldschool studios) there is a common approach to use VU-meter when record, which was designed to "0dB on VU meter" = "-18dbFS". That level prevents an unwanted distortion to a signal when using an analog equipment or analog-emulating plugins and serves a good signal/noise ratio.

Thus, setting the "-6dB of AutoSet" will cause that the signal is far far above 0db at VU meter.

Why did RME decide to design the AutoSet exactly to -6dB, instead of, for example, -18db to match "VU meter standard"? Is there any objective reason or some sort of explanation?

Just curious.

Thank you!

Fireface UFX+ + ARC USB + [2 x Genelec 8331 + Genelec 7350] + [2 x 8341 + 7360]. Mogami 3080 AES/EBU

2 (edited by ramses 2022-02-05 11:42:07)

Re: Why the AutoSet function was designed to peak level of -6dB?

I think the answer goes into the following direction:

Peak level based digital leveling is much more precise than the rather sluggish VU meters that required a leveling reserve. According to Sengpiel: "Analog meter (ppm): attack time 10 to 300 ms − reading rms values. Digital meter: attack time < 1 ms − reading peak values. That is really some difference.". Additional remark from me: in this case, of course, you need quite high leveling reserves in order to get even transient-rich material output recorded without distortion.

As Sengpiel notes, you don't need a headroom like in the analog world, you just have to be careful not to go above 0dBFS.
The leveling to a peak level of -6 dBFS was most likely defined by RME out of certain safety considerations, to have a certain safety distance to 0dBFS, because even a leveling to peak level may have a very small inertia, but on the other hand, not to give away too much SNR/dynamic range of the recorded signal.
This is also why you have different reference levels to perform the A/D (and also D/A) conversion with optimum SNR/dynamic.

Additional remark from me:
- Perhaps there is also some idea behind it that A/D-D/A converters might have their sweet spot there.
- It's also practical that for multitrack recordings and later mixing, the sum of the channels in the stereo sum should not exceed 0dBFS too quickly.

Some useful quotes from this Sengpiel page:

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-db-volt.htm

"Comparison dBFS and dBu: There is no fixed standard, such as -20 dBFS = +4 dBu = 0 dBVU.
The digital peak value scale does not match the analog RMS scale. These are two different worlds"

"There is no such standardized reference. x dBFS is a digital voltage level (peak) and y dBVU or dBu is an analog voltage level (RMS). Digital and analogue are two totally different realms."

"That's why there is no relation between dBFS and dBVU or dBu, whatsoever. Analog meter (ppm): attack time 10 to 300 ms − reading rms values. Digital meter: attack time < 1 ms − reading peak values. That is really some difference."

"Advice: Watch only your digital meters and go up to 0 dBFS, but never go over this mark. We use "headroom" in the analog domain. That is OK, but we don't need digital "headroom" as an always "unused" forbidden zone. You are free to choose your private headroom, if you like that, but there is no standard that you have to do that. The demand for a high modulation level, stand in the contrary to the claim, to avoid overloading."

"The EBU broadcasters have a problem, because they want to use the old slow meters with the dBu scale (attack 10 ms, quasi-peak) of the analog times for digital recordings. The rest of the world looks always at the fast digital meters (attack < 1 ms, peak) with the dBFS scale. Forget looking at the dBu scale of the meters."

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 (edited by borisovonline 2022-02-05 17:01:23)

Re: Why the AutoSet function was designed to peak level of -6dB?

Dear ramses,

Thank you for your response and lots of materials. It's really intresting and needs in-depth studying, but... That's not what I've been asking. smile

I've been asking "why do RME use exactly -6dBFS", why not the other value? What were the reasons behind that decision.

As regards to VU meters... As you have noticed, I've been speaking about a recording gain staging exclusively, not listening or mastering, or any other things.

As far as I know, the vast majority of analog-emulation plugins behave exactly like their analog options. Thus, if you serve them, for example, -10dBFS (which is far above than 0VU), they will immediately start to distort the signal, similar to their analog options, since it's already a clipping zone for them. They are waiting for around +-0VU signal (-18dbFS) to stay clear and not distorted. And if you want a clear mix, you should stay around 0VU at all the stages (before and after the plugins), especially if you use lots of analog-emulation plugins.

In any case, I will continue do a gain staging according to 0VU, I just wanted to know why RME have decided to use exactly -6dB for AutoSet function. smile

Fireface UFX+ + ARC USB + [2 x Genelec 8331 + Genelec 7350] + [2 x 8341 + 7360]. Mogami 3080 AES/EBU