1 (edited by larst 2022-02-12 20:54:17)

Topic: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

Hi,

- I have the adi2 pro fs in preamp mode.
- I have high end microphones and outboard gear, the signal path is fully analog, resulting in a two channel mix sent to the adi.
- I have closed back headphones connected to ph 3/4.
- I sing and play acoustic guitar, the test is performed in real time, i.e. nothing is recorded.
- No eq, loudness,t/b, crossfeed enabled.
- Analog input:
    - AD-filter sharp - will automatically change to slow above 192khz.
    - AD Conversion - DSD (changes to pcm in lower sample rates I believe, thought I read this somewhere in the manual, cant't find it now though...)

I'm switching sample rate on the fly, and my mind blows right through the roof and up to the sky...

    - 44.1 - sounds like crap.
    - 96 - sounds pretty good and it's now kind of scary to realize just how bad 44.1 was.
    - 192 - sounds better than 96.
    - 768 - (analog in -> dsd256 -> pcm768 -> ph 3/4) sounds amazing! Even better than 192 ( impossible, right? :-) )

Furthermore, with 768 kHz sample rate selected, switching between pcm and dsd, makes a difference. Dsd sounds better, and dear I say it, more analog.

1: analog in -> dsd256 -> pcm768 -> ph 3/4
2: analog in -> pcm768 -> pcm768 -> ph 3/4

To be clear, the sound differences are (for the most part) to big to be fantasies, but maybe there are more things going on that I miss? If not, I can never ever go back to pcm for recording...

What do you think? Are things changing that I'm not aware of?

Cheers,

Lars

2

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

You must have overlooked an EQ. This is the only thing that stays active at 768 kHz, but gets disabled with DSD.

---------------
• At sample rates 352.8 kHz and up the Bass, Treble and Loudness function is deactivated. The number of available EQ channels is reduced to 2 (1 x stereo). EQ can still be used with Analog Input, Main Output 1/2 or Phones Out 3/4, but only one of these.

• At sample rates 705.6 kHz and up Crossfeed or EQ (1 x stereo) can be active, not both at the same time.
----------------

DSD does not work below 176.4 kHz, and that is easy to see in the display itself (clock menu).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

larst wrote:

Are things changing that I'm not aware of?

ADC-->DAC latency.
Monitoring one's own voice with headphones is prone to have issues with latencies involved as real-time bone-conduction mixes with delayed acoustic signal. And the air-bourne total acoustic signal (of guitar and voice) reaching the ear is already a mix of real-time leakage signal (even with closed-back) with the delayed playback.

You might want to check again, with actual recording and later playback to take that variable out of the picture.

4 (edited by ramses 2022-02-13 08:54:45)

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

KSTR wrote:
larst wrote:

Are things changing that I'm not aware of?

ADC-->DAC latency.
Monitoring one's own voice with headphones is prone to have issues with latencies involved as real-time bone-conduction mixes with delayed acoustic signal. And the air-bourne total acoustic signal (of guitar and voice) reaching the ear is already a mix of real-time leakage signal (even with closed-back) with the delayed playback.

You might want to check again, with actual recording and later playback to take that variable out of the picture.

This also explains why higher sample rates sound perceptibly better, because the converter latency decreases with increasing sample rate and normally 44.1 does not lead to a bad sound (but has highest converter latency). See also manual ch 34.2:
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_e.pdf

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

ramses wrote:
KSTR wrote:
larst wrote:

Are things changing that I'm not aware of?

ADC-->DAC latency.
Monitoring one's own voice with headphones is prone to have issues with latencies involved as real-time bone-conduction mixes with delayed acoustic signal. And the air-bourne total acoustic signal (of guitar and voice) reaching the ear is already a mix of real-time leakage signal (even with closed-back) with the delayed playback.

You might want to check again, with actual recording and later playback to take that variable out of the picture.

This also explains why higher sample rates sound perceptibly better, because the converter latency decreases with increasing sample rate and normally 44.1 does not lead to a bad sound (but has highest converter latency). See also manual ch 34.2:
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_e.pdf

How does higher samplerate decrease latency?

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

6

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

The converters need the same number of samples at different sample rates. That means a halfed, quadrupled etc time the higher the sample rate. No ASIO buffers etc when in Preamp mode. Here are the numbers from Analog In to Analog Out at different sample rates and DSD. DSD is even more quick due to the internal processing completely bypassed and basically no filters. Measured single sample impulse via DSO, filters Sharp for AD and DA.

44.1 kHz: 1.368 ms
96 kHz:       632 µs
192 kHz:     352 µs
384 kHz:     152 µs
768 kHz:     122 µs
DSD64:         30 µs
DSD128:       18 µs
DSD256:       12 µs

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

7 (edited by ramses 2022-02-13 12:22:31)

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

Happy_amateur wrote:

How does higher samplerate decrease latency?

Good question.

@MC: thanks Matthias, but a couple of things I still do not understand, have a "knot in my brain".

Let's take an interface like the UFX+ without different D/A filters or DSD to simplify / bring it more to the point. From manual:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y83h4kjmk1c5e9t/2022-02-13%20fface_ufxplus_e.pdf%20-%20Adobe%20Reader.jpg?dl=1

1. Why is there a difference in converter latency anyway ? Lets take A/D 44.1 vs 88.2 kHz (0.28 vs 0.14ms).
On the one hand the processing intervals are cut at half when doubling the sample rate.
On the other hand you have to process the double amount of data.
So what's the reason why the two things basically don't cancel each other out and lead to a halving of converter latency?

2. Then at quad speed the converter latency is even lower (10 samples) compared single and double speed (12..6 samples).
Is that a property of some converters that they can convert faster/more efficiently at certain speeds?

3. Why is converter latency for D/A often the same at all sample rates ?

4. That this smaller converter latency has a positive impact on RTL (converter + USB latency) you can see in the DAW.
But also there it is somehow astonishing that with higher sample rates the latency decreases more, than you can explain with "lower converter latency", so what is the 2nd reason that RTL decreases additionally?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/js402oowq4jka7h/2022-02-13%20fface_ufxplus_e.pdf%20Latency%20Cubaser.jpg?dl=1

It would be very kind if you could explain this. Unfortunately, I have not found anything suitable and just do not get it.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

MC wrote:

You must have overlooked an EQ. This is the only thing that stays active at 768 kHz, but gets disabled with DSD.

---------------
• At sample rates 352.8 kHz and up the Bass, Treble and Loudness function is deactivated. The number of available EQ channels is reduced to 2 (1 x stereo). EQ can still be used with Analog Input, Main Output 1/2 or Phones Out 3/4, but only one of these.

• At sample rates 705.6 kHz and up Crossfeed or EQ (1 x stereo) can be active, not both at the same time.
----------------

DSD does not work below 176.4 kHz, and that is easy to see in the display itself (clock menu).

I have now double and triple checked, no eq (peq, b/t, loudness) activated for analog in and ph 3/4 at 44.1.

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

KSTR wrote:
larst wrote:

Are things changing that I'm not aware of?

ADC-->DAC latency.
Monitoring one's own voice with headphones is prone to have issues with latencies involved as real-time bone-conduction mixes with delayed acoustic signal. And the air-bourne total acoustic signal (of guitar and voice) reaching the ear is already a mix of real-time leakage signal (even with closed-back) with the delayed playback.

You might want to check again, with actual recording and later playback to take that variable out of the picture.

Yes, this makes sense, and I should've thought about it! It probably explains most of the differences I hear.

Thanks!

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

MC wrote:

The converters need the same number of samples at different sample rates. That means a halfed, quadrupled etc time the higher the sample rate. No ASIO buffers etc when in Preamp mode. Here are the numbers from Analog In to Analog Out at different sample rates and DSD. DSD is even more quick due to the internal processing completely bypassed and basically no filters. Measured single sample impulse via DSO, filters Sharp for AD and DA.

44.1 kHz: 1.368 ms
96 kHz:       632 µs
192 kHz:     352 µs
384 kHz:     152 µs
768 kHz:     122 µs
DSD64:         30 µs
DSD128:       18 µs
DSD256:       12 µs

Thanks! Interesting to know!

Re: Adi-2 Pro Fs - A/D-conversion: perceived sonic difference - fake news?

ramses wrote:

This also explains why higher sample rates sound perceptibly better, because the converter latency decreases with increasing sample rate and normally 44.1 does not lead to a bad sound (but has highest converter latency). See also manual ch 34.2:
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_e.pdf

Thanks for the reminder! I've read that part before, and will certainly need to read it again. :-)