1 (edited by krzykacz 2022-02-07 14:01:23)

Topic: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Hi! My ADI-2 DAC is connected to computer via USB connector. I have no problem with that, everything works as expected. But… I’m curious if this DAC can gain something when is connected to “cleaner” USB source (like via galvanic isolation or raspberry PI with good PSU).
For me DAC is used as headphone amp, so to there is no risk for ground loops in my setup. I don’t know how well implemented is USB interface and I’m wondering is there place for any improvement or we are going into 'snake oil' territory?

2 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-07 13:55:55)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

krzykacz wrote:

Hi! My ADI-2 DAC is connected to computer via USB connector. I have no problem with that, everything works as expected. But… I’m curious if this DAC can gain something when is connected to “cleaner” USB regular PC source (like galvanic isolation or raspberry PI with good PSU).
For me DAC is used as headphone amp, so to there is no risk for ground loops in my setup.

Galvanic isolation absolutely makes sense if there is a ground loop that causes hum.
No other reason exists to go that path.

In your case the opposite is true, the USB connection supplies ADI-2 DAC with a ground reference through the computer mains/PSU connection.
This can avoid disturbances under certain circumstances, e.g. if you use AUDEZE headphones that can unintentionally transform a static electricity field into sound.

3 (edited by Curt962 2022-02-07 19:58:08)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Hi Krz!

I'm in complete agreement with KaiS in that we needn't fix problems we aren't having. (This is what the Audiophile Trade likes to do:   Planting Worries in your mind that are very profitable for them)

Simply stated. If you're not hearing Hum/Noise, then there is none to be concerned with.

Since you mentioned it?

I like Pi4!   In my use case it's a Bit-Perfect Jewel, and I'm not doing anything "special"   

Have Fun, and Enjoy!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Curt962 wrote:

This is what the Audiophile Trade likes to do:   Planting Worries in your mind that are very profitable for them.

Yeah. I absolutely agree with you. The problem is to differentiate audio voodoo with real stuff. Marketing bullshit doesn't make things easier.

KaiS & Curt, thank You for reply. Cheers!

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

krzykacz wrote:

Hi! My ADI-2 DAC is connected to computer via USB connector. I have no problem with that, everything works as expected. But… I’m curious if this DAC can gain something when is connected to “cleaner” USB source (like via galvanic isolation or raspberry PI with good PSU).
For me DAC is used as headphone amp, so to there is no risk for ground loops in my setup. I don’t know how well implemented is USB interface and I’m wondering is there place for any improvement or we are going into 'snake oil' territory?

I use a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 and TOSlink cable. Not cheap but it's a significant improvement, if you're willing to spend that kind of money.

6 (edited by ramses 2022-02-08 23:18:08)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

mediummanting wrote:
krzykacz wrote:

Hi! My ADI-2 DAC is connected to computer via USB connector. I have no problem with that, everything works as expected. But… I’m curious if this DAC can gain something when is connected to “cleaner” USB source (like via galvanic isolation or raspberry PI with good PSU).
For me DAC is used as headphone amp, so to there is no risk for ground loops in my setup. I don’t know how well implemented is USB interface and I’m wondering is there place for any improvement or we are going into 'snake oil' territory?

I use a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 and TOSlink cable. Not cheap but it's a significant improvement, if you're willing to spend that kind of money.

If you do not hear any hum, then you have no hum problem that needs to be fixed.

The device does not lead to any sound improvement, digital audio data are sound-neutral and it does not matter whether the digital audio transport was via ADAT, SPDIF or USB.

The important thing is the lossless transmission in the digital domain, which everyone can prove quickly and easily with the ADI-2 DAC/Pro thanks to the "Bit test" feature.
Also Jitter is no issue because Steadyclock FS technology removes any clock jitter, the clock signal is being refreshed and the final D/A conversion is being performed with the local FS (femto second) clock in highest quality.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

7 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-10 14:13:44)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

mediummanting wrote:
krzykacz wrote:

… I’m curious if this DAC can gain something when is connected to “cleaner” USB source (like via galvanic isolation ...
For me DAC is used as headphone amp, so to there is no risk for ground loops in my setup....

I use a Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 and TOSlink cable. Not cheap but it's a significant improvement, if you're willing to spend that kind of money.

I don‘t see the point in using an expensive USB audio interface in front of an USB audio interface, just to introduce galvanic isolation?

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

KaiS wrote:

I don‘t see the point in using an expensive USB audio interface in front of an USB audio interface, just to introduce galvanic isolation?

It sounds far better than the RME's USB input.

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

I would agree with previous posters that there is no benefit to USB isolation unless you have a problem, notably with unbalanced connectionsand as noted by @KaiS there are cases where fully floating the RME is making things worse, like in the example for standalone headphone use (not connected to anything else).

It all comes down to what actually is a problem in a given use-case. When doing measurements with the DAC/Pro on other gear USB isolation is a life-saver for me, all the time (I'm using the Intona USB.20 isolators). No worries about seeing hum/buzz/USB-packet noise etc with unclear origin.

Isolation does not do anything for the RME unit itself (it is, unlike other equipment, not affected by cross-currents through the device) but it removes any potential for uncontrolled cable-induced errors (some of which may even show up with balanced cabling, btw). All the issues people might see are always cable-related, no relation to the unit itself. So the RME does not actually improve from USB (or power supply) isolation but your whole setup might well do.

FWIW, I have not noticed any sound changes for normal listening etc when using USB isolation.

10 (edited by ramses 2022-02-09 15:41:48)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

It is obvious that mediummanting does not know what the bit test provides him. Otherwise, he would have been able to validate long ago that the bit test is passed with and without the additional device.

It would then be clear that in both cases it is a lossless transfer of digital audio data and that the final D/A conversion is performed in both cases with identical digital audio data which leads to the same analog wave form after the conversion.

Whoever is still talking about differences at this point has unfortunately not understood anything..

Furthermore, I believe that mediummanting does not use the correct test methodology to exclude psychoacoustic phenomena, which must mislead him here.

What I would at least expect from him is, to simply run the bit test with and without this device.
It should - if the test was performed correctly (i.e. correct choice of player, volume at 100%, best use of the ASIO driver) - always come to the same result, that the bit test was passed.

Well, and then there can be no sound differences. Again this is clear, obvious and no matter of a discussion.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

11 (edited by Curt962 2022-02-09 17:01:47)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

ASR's review of the device in question does not encourage one to rush out and buy.

Amir's bench asessment suggested that the device DID allow potentially for more ground loop problems, and it was suggested that a simple USB Cable was preferable, and summarized with a statement that the user was really NOT improving Anything with this device.

Snake Oil anyone?

Ya know...there's a Phrase that we on ocassion use to describe these magical unsubstantiated "improvements"   

I won't say it here, but it begins with the letter Bullshit!

My Father used to Warn me not to "fix things" until they WERE broken!  wink  Good Advice here as well.   Don't spend your Money fixing problems that you don't have.

Needless to say, my $400 will remain safely in my pocket.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Curt962 wrote:

...summarized with a statement that the user was really NOT improving Anything with this device.

Snake Oil anyone?

Ya know...there's a Phrase that we on ocassion use to describe these magical unsubstantiated "improvements"   

I won't say it here, but it begins with the letter Bullshit!

You know the story of Don Quijote, don’t you?!
This is how it feels fighting against all this Snake Oil.

Maybe just let it be, let them spend their hard earned money, someone else enjoys getting it.

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Send it to me!   (We'll share the Money ja KaiS)?  big_smile

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Curt962 wrote:

ASR's review of the device in question does not encourage one to rush out and buy.

Amir's bench asessment suggested that the device DID allow potentially for more ground loop problems, and it was suggested that a simple USB Cable was preferable, and summarized with a statement that the user was really NOT improving Anything with this device.

Snake Oil anyone?

Ya know...there's a Phrase that we on ocassion use to describe these magical unsubstantiated "improvements"   

I won't say it here, but it begins with the letter Bullshit!

My Father used to Warn me not to "fix things" until they WERE broken!  wink  Good Advice here as well.   Don't spend your Money fixing problems that you don't have.

Needless to say, my $400 will remain safely in my pocket.

Curt

You are right, do not fix things until broken.....

My LAMY multipen stuck, finally gone, cannot repair, no spare parts available even from Germany, it is more than 30 years old ... luckily, they will send me a replacement pen free of charge to make sure I do not live without a LAMY pen. smile

WOW, 30 years plus of warranty and goodwill, impressive !!

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

15 (edited by ramses 2022-02-10 09:48:10)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

KaiS wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

...summarized with a statement that the user was really NOT improving Anything with this device.

Snake Oil anyone?

Ya know...there's a Phrase that we on ocassion use to describe these magical unsubstantiated "improvements"   

I won't say it here, but it begins with the letter Bullshit!

You know the story of Don Quijote, don’t you?!
This is how it feels fighting against all this Snake Oil.

Maybe just let it be, let them spend their hard earned money, someone else enjoys getting it.

In principle, I agree with you, you could save yourself a lot of work, sometimes even trouble, if you would stay out of such discussions completely.

But I think you can't just leave that uncommented in a forum about professional studio equipment, that could give the wrong impression, as if there was actually something to it.

If that becomes ingrained, then you have exactly the same situation here as in other HiFi or analog forums.
The question is, do you really want that and read more and more of this here ? Me definitively not.

There are unfortunately only a few forums on the Internet, in which one strives for a correct presentation of facts, free of marketing bullshit, such a forum culture should be preserved.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Summing things up: don't bother until you have ground loop problem…

My subject question came from considerations if there is a place for any improvement. Since ‘I don't know what I don't know’ I had to ask.

Btw. On my other system iFi iDefender has mitigated buzz problem below audible threshold. It was a life saver.

Thanks for all of You for sharing thoughts! :-)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Bit test or whatever mentioned by our members here are true, their advice(s) are: if you do not encounter problem, can save the money, doesn't mean someone's problem was ignored, whenever problem(s) occur, discuss and find a solution, win or lose an arguement doesn't help to solve a problem.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

18 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-02-10 12:28:39)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

krzykacz wrote:

Summing things up: don't bother until you have ground loop problem…

My subject question came from considerations if there is a place for any improvement. Since ‘I don't know what I don't know’ I had to ask.

Btw. On my other system iFi iDefender has mitigated buzz problem below audible threshold. It was a life saver.

Thanks for all of You for sharing thoughts! :-)

I have an iFi Zen Dac before I bought the RME Dac, still using it for my computer, noise found, noise source is from USB power fed from computer (Mac mini) to Zen Dac .... some friends recommend the iDefender, borrowed one, tried but not successful, then I use a USB cable with barrel plug, get 5V from either a powerbank or iPhone original charger, problem solved, clean.

Not to say iDefender is not good enough, but share the experience, every case can be different. smile

Another case is RME .... I stream Apple Music to RME dac via Apple CCK3, if I feed power to the CCK3 from computer, noise will appear at phones output when I connect it to a soundbar via 3.5mm cable, the solution is iPhone original charger, clean.

It works for my setup/connection, I will not say it is a global solution. But Bit test is the best tool to judge where the problem at.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

19 (edited by eleweit 2022-02-10 12:27:28)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Interesting reading about iDefender & co: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … 9/page-163

One quote from RME itself pops up

We have units coming in regularly where the USB protection and consequently the USB input chip is blown up . In most cases users confess to have used your method via the simple and cheap iFi tool. Be ready to pay for that kind of repair...

If I get it correctly, it's because the iDefender isn't always actual isolation. And/or because poeple use it incorrectly.

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

eleweit wrote:

Interesting reading about iDefender & co: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … 9/page-163

One quote from RME itself pops up

We have units coming in regularly where the USB protection and consequently the USB input chip is blown up . In most cases users confess to have used your method via the simple and cheap iFi tool. Be ready to pay for that kind of repair...

If I get it correctly, it's because the iDefender isn't always actual isolation. And/or because poeple use it incorrectly.

For me it's working for many years without any problem. Source of ground loop issue was related to CD player which RCA connector mass is connected to AC ground pin. Connect computer via USB and loop is ready. This is not real galvanic isolation and differences of potential between devices may occur. I suspect it can be dangerous.

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Johannes AU wrote:

... But Bit test is the best tool to judge where the problem at.

Yes, but only in a digital domain of a signal.

22 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-10 14:14:05)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

eleweit wrote:

Interesting reading about iDefender & co: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … 9/page-163

One quote from RME itself pops up

We have units coming in regularly where the USB protection and consequently the USB input chip is blown up . In most cases users confess to have used your method via the simple and cheap iFi tool. Be ready to pay for that kind of repair...

If I get it correctly, it's because the iDefender isn't always actual isolation. And/or because poeple use it incorrectly.

If this is the case I pull back my recommendation and delete it in my posting above.

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

krzykacz wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

... But Bit test is the best tool to judge where the problem at.

Yes, but only in a digital domain of a signal.


Are we not talking about digital? smile

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

KaiS wrote:

If this is the case I pull back my recommendation and delete it in my posting above.

To be honest I just read that one page and it's not completely clear to me which device is meant in MC's quote, nor what you'd have to do with exactly to break things. So just adding a word of warning should be sufficient?

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Oh, USB galvanic isolation brought me a surely palpable difference.

My DAC is grounded, but my MacBook is not. (due to 2pin power cable)
When I touch my ungrounded MacBook with headphones/IEMs on, it becomes grounded via my ear~hand.

It feels not so good being a human earth cable. (+that noise!!)

26 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-15 06:02:14)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

IdleTalk wrote:

Oh, USB galvanic isolation brought me a surely palpable difference.

My DAC is grounded, but my MacBook is not. (due to 2pin power cable)
When I touch my ungrounded MacBook with headphones/IEMs on, it becomes grounded via my ear~hand.

It feels not so good being a human earth cable. (+that noise!!)

Yes, of course in this case USB galvanic isolation is not advisable at all!

It‘s the worst case scenario:
Picking the mains stray current from the unearth device and feeding it through your body into the earthed one.

There should be an earth in a system somewhere, doesn’t matter where if it’s only a single one.
I do in fact use a separate cable with a special blind plug to achieve this:

https://www.conrad.de/de/p/wolfgang-war … 37382.html

https://asset.conrad.com/media10/isa/160267/c1/-/de/001337382PI00/wolfgang-warmbier-2200-113y-esd-erdungsbox-2-00-m-ringoese-4-mm.jpg?x=640&y=640&format=jpg&ex=640&ey=640&align=center

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

KaiS wrote:
IdleTalk wrote:

Oh, USB galvanic isolation brought me a surely palpable difference.

My DAC is grounded, but my MacBook is not. (due to 2pin power cable)
When I touch my ungrounded MacBook with headphones/IEMs on, it becomes grounded via my ear~hand.

It feels not so good being a human earth cable. (+that noise!!)

Yes, of course in this case USB galvanic isolation is not advisable at all!

It‘s the worst case scenario:
Picking the mains stray current from the unearth device and feeding it through your body into the earthed one.

The problem was with my Grace Design M903 & Apple MacBook Pro
I solved that problem with 3-pole adapter cable from Apple.

Now I'm using another system: RME ADI-2 DAC & Apple iMac
iMac is earthed by default, but ADI-2 DAC is not.
Thankfully ADI-2 DAC does not feature galvanic isolation so that it can be earthed via USB.

I hope there isn't any disadvantage to earth a audio device via USB.

28 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-14 20:24:45)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

IdleTalk wrote:

...
I hope there isn't any disadvantage to earth a audio device via USB.

No, there’s no analog audio running through USB.

This USB ground inter-connection functions as link from ground (devices) to earth (mother earth, really).
It’s equalizing the electric potentials and preventing adverse effects cause from floating ground potentials

We had some cases where headphones started to produce hum caused by such floating ground potentials.
AUDEZE headphones are are quite prone to this effect, and there are others to, even my nice Jecklin Float Electrostats.

29

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

KaiS wrote:

There should be an earth in a system somewhere, doesn’t matter where if it’s only a single one.
I do in fact use a separate cable with a special blind plug to achieve this:
https://asset.conrad.com/media10/isa/160267/c1/-/de/001337382PI00/wolfgang-warmbier-2200-113y-esd-erdungsbox-2-00-m-ringoese-4-mm.jpg?x=640&y=640&format=jpg&ex=640&ey=640&align=center

Abgesehen vom deutlich zu hohen Preis dieses durchaus nützlichen Tools, ist das Hauptproblem dass der aufgedruckte Name des Firmeninhabers es wie einen Aprilscherz aussehen lässt...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

30 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-15 06:10:03)

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

MC wrote:
KaiS wrote:

There should be an earth in a system somewhere, doesn’t matter where if it’s only a single one.
I do in fact use a separate cable with a special blind plug to achieve this:
https://asset.conrad.com/media10/isa/160267/c1/-/de/001337382PI00/wolfgang-warmbier-2200-113y-esd-erdungsbox-2-00-m-ringoese-4-mm.jpg?x=640&y=640&format=jpg&ex=640&ey=640&align=center

Abgesehen vom deutlich zu hohen Preis dieses durchaus nützlichen Tools, ist das Hauptproblem dass der aufgedruckte Name des Firmeninhabers es wie einen Aprilscherz aussehen lässt...

Sieht aus wie ein Scherz, ist aber ein reales Angebot von Conrad Electronic.
https://www.conrad.de/de/p/wolfgang-war … 37382.html

Natürlich kann man sowas auch mit Resten aus der Wühlbox für 0 € basteln.
Würde ich hier aber einem Laien auf keinen Fall empfehlen immerhin findet sich in dem Stecker die lebensgefährliche Netz-Spannung.
Insofern gehen die 22 € eigentlich OK.

31

Re: ADI-2 DAC and USB galvanic isolation - is it worth?

Das sehe ich weniger kritisch. Denn man muss ja einfach nur aus einem handelsüblichen Schuko-Stecker die beiden Stifte entfernen. Schon kann eigentlich nichts schief gehen, weil nur noch der Schutzkontakt zum Anschliessen des Drahtes übrig bleibt.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME