1 Topic by troy (edited by troy 2022-04-06 08:49:10)

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Topic: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Hi team,

I have just upgraded to one of these wonderful Mac Studio's and with a few adapters I have connected my trusty Fireface 400
I have installed your drives and been through Boot in recovery mode process several times. I have updated Terminal while in Recovery mode as well and finally got to this stage following this link https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=30462;

To update your account to use zsh, please run `chsh -s /bin/zsh`.
For more details, please visit https://support.apple.com/kb/HT208050.
Mac-Studio:Extensions myname$ /usr/sbin/spctl kext-consent list
Allowed Team Identifiers:
67AK2U2X7M

I feel I have tried everything and while Totalmix starts up, RME Fireface Settings does not andthe FF400 does not show up in my Sound interfaces.

I have spent a full afternoon at this and got nowhere, prompting me to ask am I wasting my time with this and should it ebven work?

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I am very attached to my FF400 and don't want to have to replace it.
Thanks

  • Jeff
  • Jeff
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: USA
  • Registered: 2007-05-21
  • Posts: 4,649

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Tell us about the adapters, are these the Apple TB3 > TB2 and TB > FW800 models? Are you also using an adapter for FW400 (6 pin) to FW800 (9 pin) or is that just a cable with different tips on the ends?

Also, you cannot use bus power here, TB will not provide enough to power the unit. You need to connect the external DC power supply and switch the FF400 to EXT on the rear panel.

Regards,
Jeff Petersen
Synthax Inc.

Jeff's Website

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Hey Jeff, I am using a Firewire 400 to 800 adapter, then the Apple Firewire 800 adapter to Thunderbolt 2 and finally a Thunderbolt 2 / MiniDisplay adapter to Thunderbolt 3/4.
I am also plugged into the PSU so have external power and the RME turns on, but has the red light showing not connected.
I can open Total mix and I can see the RME Settings application, but when I click that it doesn't open. If I connect the Fireface back to my old machine via FW400, it works.
So how do I know if this is an adapter issue or Drivers and it is adapters, can you recommend any tried and tested?

  • Jeff
  • Jeff
  • Moderator
  • Offline
  • From: USA
  • Registered: 2007-05-21
  • Posts: 4,649

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Most likely cause here would be the FW400 to FW800 adapter, I have found these to be unreliable. Better to try a cable with FW800 on one end for the Apple TB adapter and FW400 on the other end for the FF400.

Regards,
Jeff Petersen
Synthax Inc.

Jeff's Website

5 Reply by rich_vant (edited by rich_vant 2022-04-07 21:37:23)

  • Registered: 2022-04-07
  • Posts: 1

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Just FYI...not really sure this is related, but just in case: a major bug was introduced in Monterey 12.3 that affects FireWire.  Users of DV Camcorders have found that the devices are no longer accessible in applications, even though they show up in the System Profiler (About This Mac --> System Report --> FireWire).  See https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253757258 for details.  I wonder if this could be the same problem?  Would be worth checking the Profiler to see if your FF even shows up.

A poster on another forum hypothesized that this might be due to certain security updates in 12.3:

It may be a collateral victim of the FaceTime & Sandbox fixes in Monterey 12.3 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213183
FaceTime
Impact: A user may send audio and video in a FaceTime call without knowing that they have done so
Description: This issue was addressed with improved checks.
Sandbox
Impact: A malicious application may be able to bypass certain Privacy preferences
Description: The issue was addressed with improved permissions logic.

See https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/im … t-31006024

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Thanks for the responses guys.
So the Adapter I am using for the USB-C / Thunderbolt 3 is this;

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/16505268464 … 4600508617 which I assume is OK, but does say Mini Display Port.
Is there a difference between this and this Apple cord?

https://www.apple.com/au/shop/product/M … -2-adapter

I have read loads of stuff online about the difference between Mini Display Port and Thunderbolt 2, but none seem to talk about the connector itself. Could this be a problem?

As for the Firewire adapter, would something like this be better?
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/12398191469 … BMlvHC6IBg

Thanks guys

7 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,433

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

That adapter does not work. Not at all. And that should be more than obvious. No TB flash symbol. Much too cheap. No mention of TB.

> Is there a difference between this and this Apple cord?

Yes.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

8 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,433

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

rich_vant wrote:

Just FYI...not really sure this is related, but just in case: a major bug was introduced in Monterey 12.3 that affects FireWire.  Users of DV Camcorders have found that the devices are no longer accessible in applications, even though they show up in the System Profiler (About This Mac --> System Report --> FireWire).  See https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253757258 for details.  I wonder if this could be the same problem?  Would be worth checking the Profiler to see if your FF even shows up.

A poster on another forum hypothesized that this might be due to certain security updates in 12.3:

It may be a collateral victim of the FaceTime & Sandbox fixes in Monterey 12.3 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213183
FaceTime
Impact: A user may send audio and video in a FaceTime call without knowing that they have done so
Description: This issue was addressed with improved checks.
Sandbox
Impact: A malicious application may be able to bypass certain Privacy preferences
Description: The issue was addressed with improved permissions logic.

See https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/im … t-31006024

Thanks, that is useful information.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • From: Haimhausen
  • Registered: 2012-04-02
  • Posts: 213

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Everything working well here with 12.3.1 and the Fireface 400
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w8zfpldz1l7va … y.JPG?dl=0

Regards,
Audio AG Support

Audio AG Support's Website

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Audio Ag Support,

Please can ask where you got your cabling or the adapters you are using?

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Thank you very much MC, your advice is very helpful, even if your delivery is somewhat demeaning. Maybe not for you, but the compatibility of a plug that is physically identical for Mini Display Port and Thunderbolt 2  is far from obvious. Even after a fair bit of Googling, there is plenty of information about this connection type on devices, but little on adapters. Believe it or not, some RME users are Musicians and are therefore not so well versed in Electronics and Connectivity Specifications as your good selves.

Again, thank you for the help and I will try to do better when choosing my adapters in future.

12 Reply by troy (edited by troy 2022-04-28 03:45:50)

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Hi team,
So I have splashed out on the most expensive cables money can buy and still nothing happens.
I have the;
Genuine Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2
Genuine Apple Thunderbolt to FireWire Adapter
Startech Firewire 800 (IEEE1394b) to Firewire 400 (IEEE1394a) Cable.

I have installed the RME Drivers and when I check Terminal, this is the result

Mac-Studio:~ myname$ /usr/sbin/spctl kext-consent list
Allowed Team Identifiers:
67AK2U2X7M

The RME is powered externally and I have installed what I assume to be the RME drivers.
Fireface Settings Version 3.41
Totalmix Version 1.75

I follow your instructions and installed in Recovery mode with Security settings off, but despite all of this, my Mac Studio is not seeing my RME Fireface 400.

Even when I try to start the Fireface Settings App, nothing happens. It's there, but nothing happens when I try to open it. So I can't allow it in the Security & Privacy settings, because it doesn't even try to start up.

Do you have a clear process I can follow to either trouble shoot this or start again.

Thanks

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Audio AG Support wrote:

Everything working well here with 12.3.1 and the Fireface 400
https://www.dropbox.com/s/w8zfpldz1l7va … y.JPG?dl=0

Please can you confirm that you are using a Mac Studio with M1 Chip?

14 Reply by troy (edited by troy 2022-04-28 05:18:08)

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

OK, so after talking to Apple for some time and thoroughly investigating this issue, the verdict is that the Mac Studio cannot physically support Firewire. Monterey 12.3.1 does support it, but the Mac Studio Hardware cannot and never will support Firewire.
There is a clue to this on the Apple Adapter page here. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD46 … re-adapter

As you can see under Compatibility, NO MAC STUDIO.

Based on Apple's advice, it seems that no Firewire RME Fireface unit will ever work with the new Mac Studio, because the Mac simply won't see Firewire.
So, can anyone recommend a good Audio Interface comparable to the Fireface 400?

15 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-04-28 09:27:21)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,861

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

New interface: UCX II
Used market: UC, UCX

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=35156

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=33222

Edit: after seeing RMEs reply. Thunderbolt is external PCIe and the adapter delivers FW<>TB conversion. This should work. Makes no sense to me that only this Apple product should miss some lines of code or whatever to make this work.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • From: Haimhausen
  • Registered: 2012-04-02
  • Posts: 213

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

troy wrote:

OK, so after talking to Apple for some time and thoroughly investigating this issue, the verdict is that the Mac Studio cannot physically support Firewire. Monterey 12.3.1 does support it, but the Mac Studio Hardware cannot and never will support Firewire.
There is a clue to this on the Apple Adapter page here. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD46 … re-adapter

As you can see under Compatibility, NO MAC STUDIO.

Based on Apple's advice, it seems that no Firewire RME Fireface unit will ever work with the new Mac Studio, because the Mac simply won't see Firewire.
So, can anyone recommend a good Audio Interface comparable to the Fireface 400?

I used the normal Apple adapters on the M1. Check if  if you see the adapter and the Fireface 400 in the system report.
It should look like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rhkn5potk6l4m … e.png?dl=0

Also try to reset the driver permissions:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DbQaun … l=RMEAudio

Regards,
Audio AG Support

Audio AG Support's Website

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Ah ha! Apple were wrong.

I got it going at last.

It's all down to Bus Power.

On Audio AG Support's advice I had a look at the System Report again. There was nothing showing under Thunderbolt, however when I looked at USB, I could see the Thunderbolt 3 to 2 adapter. I then tried connecting to the Front Ports, without success. But when I reconnected to the rear Thunderbolt Port again I got a message saying that there was not enough power for the device and I should remove some other devices. (All 4 are in use).

The RME has external power, which is weird, but I disconnected my external hard-drive and suddenly the RME works.

I run three monitors, two of which are connected to the rear Thunderbolt Ports and the other HDMI. I have a small USB dock connected too.

What I have found, is that if I connect the external Hard Drive to the Front Ports on the Mac Studio, it works and does not interfere with the RME Fireface. It's a bit of pain having a wire hanging out of the front of the Mac Studio, but it will have to do.

So there it is guys. Despite what Apple say, the New Mac Studio will work with the RME Fireface 400, but don't try to run an External Hardrive off of the rear Thunderbolt Ports.

If you guys at RME need any data, just let me know and I'll send you what you need.

Thanks

18 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,433

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Good to know. Nevertheless FireWire has no future. With the new driver generation that will be mandatory soon FireWire is no longer possible because no longer supported in the OS.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

MC wrote:

Good to know. Nevertheless FireWire has no future. With the new driver generation that will be mandatory soon FireWire is no longer possible because no longer supported in the OS.

Agreed, I suspect this will be the case, so will look to off-load my FF400 shortly and grab the Babyface or SSL2+. (That's a hint by the way, that maybe the Babyface needs to be a little more competitively priced). Just saying!

Something else important that Mac Studio owners should know. In order for the Fireface 400 to connect, you must disconnect all other Thunderbolt connections first and then reconnect them once the Fireface has connected. I think the solution would be to buy a Powered Dock, as the Power available in the Mac Studio Thunderbolt ports is absolutely appalling.

But as we have established,  all that money on a dock is probably better diverted to a new Audio Interface.

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,861

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

troy wrote:

Agreed, I suspect this will be the case, so will look to off-load my FF400 shortly and grab the Babyface or SSL2+. (That's a hint by the way, that maybe the Babyface needs to be a little more competitively priced).

Just had a quick view on the SSL product out of interest. My 1st impression is that you can't easily compare those two products. The BBF Pro FS offers more channels and features.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2018-12-21
  • Posts: 306

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

troy wrote:

so will look to off-load my FF400 shortly

The FF400 still does a fabulous jobs as an adat converter in standalone mode!
If you don't wanna spend the money for a Babyface, you could just get the much cheaper Digiface USB and you're good to go.

  • Registered: 2022-05-04
  • Posts: 6

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

MC wrote:

Good to know. Nevertheless FireWire has no future. With the new driver generation that will be mandatory soon FireWire is no longer possible because no longer supported in the OS.

This sounds quite alarming. I´m momentarily running a fireface 400 with a silicon MacBook Pro / Monterey 12.3.1 and everything is working great. Now I´m kind of scared, that a future OS update might break this. Apple probably won´t say anything about it, as they surely consider firewire as obsolete. Will there be any warning from rme´s side ? Or could you elaborate a little more about "the new driver generation that will be mandatory soon" ? I surely would hate to find myself in a situation, where my interface stops working from one day to another - especially considering the momentary long wait times on new rme stuff...

23 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 25,433

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Most probably the next OS version (major update) already.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2022-05-04
  • Posts: 6

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Thanks MC. As long as those changes don´t come with point updates (e.g. 12.4) I´m fine. Was going to skip OS 13 anyway and wait till OS 14. Plenty of time to prepare...

  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

hselters wrote:
troy wrote:

so will look to off-load my FF400 shortly

The FF400 still does a fabulous jobs as an adat converter in standalone mode!
If you don't wanna spend the money for a Babyface, you could just get the much cheaper Digiface USB and you're good to go.

Digiface is no good for me, as the only ADAT device I have is and old Alesis S4 Plus, which is cool, but only needs the ADAT in should I choose to connect it. I need a couple of Mic Pre's and a couple of Instrument ins, anything else is a bonus. Just need it to sound spectacular and have little to no latency, which of course the RME kit does.

As mentioned by 'MC', I have done a bit of research now and agree that in all likelihood, Firewire faces the firing squad when MacOs13 Mammoth is released in October.

I am having some really irritating issues with the new Mac Studio and its bus power. I have to disconnect a monitor, every time I want to run the Fireface. Once it is connected, I can reconnect the monitor and all is well, but it's a serious pain in the ass.

So from a Hardware perspective, Firewire is not a consideration for Apple anymore, so why bother including the software in the next MacOS. No point at all.

Anyway, I'm shopping for a Babyface, once I can sell this Fireface 400. Any buyers?

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

hselters wrote:
troy wrote:

so will look to off-load my FF400 shortly

The FF400 still does a fabulous jobs as an adat converter in standalone mode!
If you don't wanna spend the money for a Babyface, you could just get the much cheaper Digiface USB and you're good to go.

That’s true, but one have to keep an old computer, compatible to the FF400 for the case you have to configure it new for some reason.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • troy
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2022-04-06
  • Posts: 17

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Indeed. Whoever buys this from me should be someone who is running a PC or a slightly older Mac they don't intend to update to MacOS 13 'Mammoth' when it is released. Pretty sure plenty of folks (especially if they are on a budget), won't be updating to 13 for this very reason or are running a Windows PC with F/W Board.  So I am hoping to find a buyer soon.

  • Registered: 2018-12-21
  • Posts: 306

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

oli77sch wrote:
hselters wrote:
troy wrote:

so will look to off-load my FF400 shortly

The FF400 still does a fabulous jobs as an adat converter in standalone mode!
If you don't wanna spend the money for a Babyface, you could just get the much cheaper Digiface USB and you're good to go.

That’s true, but one have to keep an old computer, compatible to the FF400 for the case you have to configure it new for some reason.

Yep, probably good to keep an old computer around, though in practice a reconfiguration is not really needed, once you set it up once as an ADAT Standalone converter. Preamp and Output Gains can be set on the device itself.
Only the phantom power toggle switch needs a connected computer..., so have to make a choice there.

  • Registered: 2016-10-13
  • Posts: 5

Re: Fireface400 Not working with MacOS Monterey 12.3.1

Hello everyone,
I am considering buying the new MacBook Pro 14inch and I was wondering if there would be any compatibility issues with my very old Rme Fireface 800 which I still want to use. Please let me know and thank you in advance.