1 (edited by frederic47 2022-04-11 17:35:37)

Topic: sub integration

Hello, i'm a new owner of an ADI 2 DAC FS.
I've seen other threads but still, i'm confused :



Was i mistaken when i thought I'd read that i could EQ separately :
- one line out (via XLR) for my subwoofer
- one line out (via RCA) for my main speakers



Am I wrong then with this :
- output 1/2 = RCA
- output 3/4 = XLR
- output 5 = headphone
- output 6 = IEM ?


if only ONE line out is available, then i will have to find another cost effective way to introduce a low pass filter in my system...

Re: sub integration

Thanks a lot for your advice or solutions :

my goal is also to releave my speaker woofers (as well as my main tube amplifier) from the burden of the sub 60Hz-or-so-bass, and to be more agile above that range.


By the way, here is a very good audio Podcast, I think, on the subject of bass integration :
https://darko.audio/2022/01/podcast-30- … nd-beyond/

Re: sub integration

You have the DAC, not the Pro. So you cannot EQ separately.

Pro can EQ 1/2 and 3/4 separately. DAC only has stereo.

4 (edited by KaiS 2022-04-11 18:51:40)

Re: sub integration

I’d suggest to use an external analog or digital X-Over.

(Mis-)using an equalizer as crossover has never been a good idea, too many important features are missing.

Re: sub integration

Thank you both.

@ Ning you are right : i was confused by the Pro version ability to separate XLR and RCA.


@Kais do you think LP and HP filters are not the only necessary features of a crossover ?
Don't you think that "upgrading" to the Pro version would allow as good a bass management as a dedicated crossover ?

6 (edited by KaiS 2022-04-11 21:06:27)

Re: sub integration

frederic47 wrote:

@Kais do you think LP and HP filters are not the only necessary features of a crossover ?
Don't you think that "upgrading" to the Pro version would allow as good a bass management as a dedicated crossover ?

Additional to the:
• Filter Frequencies,
• Filter Q
offered by ADI-2, you need the choice of:
• Filter type (Bessel, Butterworth, Linkwitz-Riley),
• Filter Slope (6, 12, 18 dB/Octave),
• Phase adjustment.
• Satellite delay.

Re: sub integration

but those features that are missing...
will you find them in a non professional hi-fi or even mid-fi solutions ?

If i look at such a 600€ x-over solutions as this one below :
https://sublimeacoustic.com/products/k2 … -crossover
i don't see much more features than what the ADI 2 pro EQ has to offer


couldn't this last solution be enough in a environement (my listening room) where subwoofer integration is already fairly good ?
(my sub is right next to me while listening, which has proven to be quite effective in my case)

Re: sub integration

frederic47 wrote:

Thank you both.

@ Ning you are right : i was confused by the Pro version ability to separate XLR and RCA.

Pro does not

9

Re: sub integration

Or in more detail: the Pro does not have RCA at all, but TRS on the rear. Those are channels 1/2, so the same as XLR. The only way would be to use out 3/4, which is the headphone output. Not recommended to use such a setup as  2 way crossover, see above.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: sub integration

Right. For crossover, you'll need to use hardware solutions such as MiniDSP, or software solutions such as CamillaDSP. ADI-2 is not designed for this use case.

11 (edited by KaiS 2022-04-12 07:17:27)

Re: sub integration

frederic47 wrote:

but those features that are missing...
will you find them in a non professional hi-fi or even mid-fi solutions ?

If i look at such a 600€ x-over solutions as this one below :
https://sublimeacoustic.com/products/k2 … -crossover
i don't see much more features than what the ADI 2 pro EQ has to offer

The features are there, you define the parameters by soldering the correct valued resistors on the plug in modules.
I have a professional Electro-Voice X-Over working like this for my biamped Sentry III system.

frederic47 wrote:

couldn't this last solution be enough in a environement (my listening room) where subwoofer integration is already fairly good ?
(my sub is right next to me while listening, which has proven to be quite effective in my case)

Please name your components for further aid, else we are talking hot air.
E.g., why does the sub need an additional filter, I don‘t know any commercially available one that doesn’t have it build in.

I have a possible (no cost!) solution at hand that works with the single output ADI-2 DAC too, but need to know your component’s details.

12 (edited by frederic47 2022-04-12 08:30:29)

Re: sub integration

Thank you Ning, CAMILLIA sounds as a very good solution as i have a RaspberryPi 3-based streamer.

especialy if time alignement and room correction is involved too.

ning wrote:

Right. For crossover, you'll need to use hardware solutions such as MiniDSP, or software solutions such as CamillaDSP. ADI-2 is not designed for this use case.

appart from this Digione Signature streamer, my system is as follows :

13 (edited by frederic47 2022-04-12 08:55:01)

Re: sub integration

KaiS wrote:

I have a possible (no cost!) solution at hand that works with the single output ADI-2 DAC too, but need to know your component’s details.

;-)
- Digione signature
  that will eventualy be my only source. based on a RPi3.
- DAC ADI2-FS
  (and another DAC/CD Transport)
-Manley Stingway mk1 Tube integrated
  (with a sub-out) (

- Speakers : Audio Ref AR85
  (4 way french towers from the early 80's - with 10" woofers going down to 35Htz)
- BK acoustics subwoofer
  (with a LP-filter / but no High Passed line-out to the main speakers)
  (with both high level speakon and low level entry)

14 (edited by KaiS 2022-04-12 09:17:12)

Re: sub integration

OK, the solution:


The idea is, to boost the system’s bass response with the sub, then linearize the response again with ADI-2 DAC’s equalizer.

This way the main speakers and amp is relieved from parts of the bass load, but still contribute to the bass in a favorable way.

This approach largely avoids bloated bass from a slow sub, as the much faster main speakers still serve for the bass transients.
Even room coupling usually works better with still multiple bass sources.


Here we go:

How to setup ADI-2 DAC in a setup with
main speaker+subwoofer.

The following sounds a bit lengthy and complicated, but is in fact quite straigth forward and can be fun.


What we need:

• iPhone/iPad with "RTA“ by Andrew Smith, 5.49€ in the Appstore, try out is free:
https://apps.apple.com/de/app/rta/id298839433
Or the AudioTools suite (we only use RTA):
https://apps.apple.com/de/app/audiotools/id325307477

• Something to place the iDevice in free air at the listener's position, e.g. a photo tripod, a selfiestick, or any stick+tape, or any mount.
Don't lay the iDevice on something big, this would disturb the soundfield around the mic.

• Pink noise from any source.
The AudioTools' RTA has a generator built in.
You can either connect this iDevice, or a 2nd one with the same app (that's what I usually do), or use PinkNoise from a CD or from Youtube:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXtimhT-ff4


• In AudioTools RTA's Setup "Mic Compensation Filter", and "Measurement Mode" should be Enabled.
Set "Output Mode" to "Mono", not "Balanced"!


• Switch OFF the subwoofer.
• Set RTA to 1/3 Okt., 30s Decay.
• Look at the room noise.
• Play the Pink Noise.
• Dial in a Pink Noise level 15-20dB above room noise.
The average from 100Hz to 1kHz should meet a scale line, as reference line.
• Switch OFF the main speakers, ON the sub.
• On the sub's controls, set the level at 10dB above the the RTA's reference line, with sub's x-over frequency try to find a range between 60-110Hz that looks the most linear. Make a pencil mark.
• On ADI-2 DAC, use the lowest EQ band: Shelving, Level -8dB, f=like sub, Q=0,7, as a startpoint..

• Now, switch the main speakers ON too, linearize the response by playing with:
- the sub's phase switch,
- the EQ settings, but only the low band.
- the sub's frequency control around the pencil mark,
- and a bit with the sub's room placement if possible.

These are all interactive.

Goal is a slightly, 3dB, elevated bass and a relatively linear bass response.
With a good setting you can counteract room modes too.
Don't care about higher frequencies at this point.


Take notes when you found a good setting before trying another.
Listen to music inbetween if you found a good setting.

15 (edited by frederic47 2022-04-12 12:14:18)

Re: sub integration

Thanks a lot ! that's all very clear.


I have a Umike microphone and a thought i would give REW software a try, maybe sticking for now to RCA is simplier...



As i understand it, two options :

- Camilla DSP
  but if it works in the digital domain is it able to filter differently my speakers from my
  sub ? It's a bit abstract to me at this point.
  But i suspect this solution can do a lot (for room correction, phase...)

- or KaiS' solution
  wich somehow should releave my mains' woofers and amplifier  from at least part of
  the burden of the sub bass (though i'm not completely sure on that point)

16 (edited by ning 2022-04-12 12:49:56)

Re: sub integration

> - Camilla DSP
  but if it works in the digital domain is it able to filter differently my speakers from my sub ? It's a bit abstract to me at this point.
  But i suspect this solution can do a lot (for room correction, phase...)

Of course, it has endless possibilities and plenty of filters for you to choose from.
You can even use FIR filters to correct phase, which is not possible with EQ.
With measurement mics you can do crossover and frequency-response/phase correction to the optimal accuracy.
(If you have time, you can even correct the phase of each woofers and tweeters! Analog hardware simply cannot achieve that.)
The official doc has samples for crossover.
Unlike FPGA/DSP solution ADI-2 uses, CamillaDSP runs on your OS and needs CPU power for processing (thus has some latency) though.

With Linux 5.18 (will be released in a few months), one can use a Linux machine (such as a Raspberry Pi) as a simple digital interface --- you connect the RPi to your PC/Mobile device, and it will be recognized as a standard audio interface like the ADI-2. You send music signals in, and it can DSP your input audio and send it out to a standard DAC (such as ADI-2). I currently have a RPi that do exactly what ADI-2 can do (crossfeed, EQ, loudness, etc) and it can be used just like a regular audio interface.

Re: sub integration

frederic47 wrote:

- or KaiS' solution
  wich somehow should releave my mains' woofers and amplifier  from at least part of
  the burden of the sub bass (though i'm not completely sure on that point)

Yes that’s exactly what it’s meant to be, and it’s more than somehow: 8 dB down reduces amp power to 1/6th.

The overlap between mains and sub prevents nasty effects due to phase/time shifts in the bass.
It even prevents the bass from sounding decoupled from the rest.

Of course, the amount of sub level and EQ processing can be even more, but the figures in my suggestion are proven to do the trick.


REW should work for setting this up, if it has a Realtime Analyzer option.
Give it a shot, it doesn’t cost a penny.

18 (edited by frederic47 2022-04-12 16:57:09)

Re: sub integration

thanks all, thats realy helpful.

(-: though i will have to find some time off to experiment all this, like :
microphone mesurements / your setup KaiS / REW / filtering tests, etc...)



To finish with :

do you see major differences between those two approches ?
- Via mesurement and DAC EQ
- or via CamillaDSP


I mean, major differences that possibly make things much easier,
OR that make a palpable sonic improvement ?

"Phase Correction", that Ning mentioned, I suppose is one fairly big difference.

19 (edited by ning 2022-04-12 17:38:25)

Re: sub integration

Not too many differences. Via DAC's EQ is a lot more coarse (7 band only).
Good part is you can see your curve changing while tuning realtime.
Cons is for newbies it takes time tuning/optimizing, as there're only 7 bands available so you have to plan smartly.

camilladsp can have as many EQ as your CPU allowed, so you can fine tune it.
You can also use a software such as REW to automatically compute the filters so it's easier for newbies.

phase correction/digital crossover are also where camilladsp shines. you cannot do that with ADI-2.
For digital crossover you need multichannel DAC, as 2 are not enough.

Re: sub integration

The most obvious difference:
You won’t need to buy anything with my approach, neither need to reconfigure your system.

Re: sub integration

KaiS wrote:

The most obvious difference:
You won’t need to buy anything with my approach, neither need to reconfigure your system.

Yours need to have a measuring device (be it mic or phone), an ADI-2, and a lot of human labor.
No way to measure multiple points and take the average.

Mine only need a measuring device.
It's automatic, versatile, fool proof, and precise.

22 (edited by KaiS 2022-04-12 18:58:27)

Re: sub integration

Frederic47 already has an ADI-2 DAC, a measurement mic and REW.

For averaging various measurement positions slowly move the mic over the desired range.
This simulate the professional solution using a rotating boom, or multiple mics and an automatic switcher.
I have one and never use it, too time consuming to setup.

Usually I start static, at my listening position.
Finally rotate the mic by hand over an extended area.

Labor: last time I did it for fun it took 10 min.
Specially with the iPhone it’s so simple, setup time: zero.
But as setup options are limited. the outcome is a bit a matter of luck for a given system.

23 (edited by frederic47 2022-04-13 08:31:43)

Re: sub integration

sounds good to me.
but i keep CamillaDSP in mind too, and i surely will explore the subject.
thank you both.


and i'm happy to see i can explore other subject on the rme forum
(loudness level is next)

Re: sub integration

frederic47 wrote:

... i'm happy to see i can explore other subject on the rme forum
(loudness level is next)

Go here for a Loudness setup guide:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 72#p185172


Don’t forget to deactivate Loudness before setting up / measure the sub!