Topic: What filter is your favorite and why?

Hi all,

I'm a new RME ADI-2 DAC owner and having a lot of fun experimenting with different settings. For the first few days, I settled on SD SLOW as my preferred filter. It made the mids sound beautiful and organic. However, I struggled with feeling like it made a lot different songs too similar and gave music a homogeneous quality. The SLOW filter exacerbated this quality and I felt like songs lost their dynamism. NOS gave the most beautiful vocal but otherwise sounded muddy and foggy to my ears.

I've since tried the SHARP filters and settled on SHARP (SD SHARP sounded like it compressed the soundstage). To my ears, SHARP gives music it's identity again and artists sound different from one another. Most music sounds great, though i get the occasional harsh treble on specific songs.

I know listening is subjective, and maybe no one else has this experience, but is there any kind of audio science behind why this might be the case?

I'm also curious as to what other's preferred filters are and why.

2 (edited by KaiS 2020-08-11 07:47:01)

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

In conjunction with the EQ settings I use for my various headphones, Slow filter is my choice quite often.

Sharp is brighter, but tends to make the treble sounds less separated - hihats, cymbals, shakers and vocal sibiliants tend to smear into one another.
The room sounds are more defined with Slow too.

To say it clear, the difference is subtle, not worlds apart.


Certainly there is a technical reason for this:
The impulse response of Slow is better, giving a more precise result in the treble.


I know this phenomenon from my studio work:
if I time delay channels in a multi microphone set up, in a way to align the attacks, impact gets better and the result becomes more transparent.

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

KaiS wrote:

To say it clear, the difference is subtle, not worlds apart.


Have you tried to identify these differences in a setup where you don't know which filter you are currently listening to?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

4 (edited by KaiS 2020-08-11 18:42:37)

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

RME Support wrote:
KaiS wrote:

To say it clear, the difference is subtle, not worlds apart.


Have you tried to identify these differences in a setup where you don't know which filter you are currently listening to?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Yes, I do blind tests to verify my findings whenever possible.

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

I mostly use Slow if I'm listening to music and don't need perfect accuracy. If I have someone switching the filters for me blindly (e.g. wife with the remote and me listening), I almost always like the Slow filter the most. I think I like the rolloff.

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

I prefer NOS with this correction https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 62#p147562
I sounds like music for me :-)

Adi-2 Pro, Adi-2 Dac Fs

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

I use HQPlayer (poly-sinc-short-mp) and up-sample to PCM 768khz, so the RME DAC won't use any of its filters at all for me, they are bypassed because of high sample rate.

This is the number one reason (in my opinion) for external up-sampling with filter, you replace a CPU starved DAC and its very simple filters with something more advanced which is done on a fast computer.

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

Hello. I have a question. I own an ADI-2 DAC FS. I like the slow filter the most. You have provided EQ correction options (to compensate for the filter drop), but some sessions in the DAW are in the 44100 and others in the 48000 sample rate. I have to constantly change the EQ settings every time I change the sample rate, and I'm worried that sometimes I might forget to do so. My idea is to make a separate Setup for each sample rate with the filter and EQ settings for the three outputs of the device. My question is: Is there a way to automate the change of sample rate with the change of Setup.
For example, when the sample rate changes, it automatically loads the corresponding Setup with the settings.

I apologize for the poor English, but I'm using Google Translate. I hope this translator has expressed me correctly.

9 (edited by ramses 2022-05-29 15:52:22)

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

There is no way to do that, except maybe to use different presets and assign them to different buttons on the remote.

Just a few thoughts on that topic..

I would recommend not to complicate things too much. The DAC sounds great with all D/A filter settings, the differences are only very subtle. The only difference that is easier to notice is NOS compared to the other D/A filters at 44.1 because of the treble drop.

For music playback, I use the "Slow" filter, see KaiS's observations: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 1#p186341.

That's IMHO all you need and it doesn't have the treble drop like NOS.

If you want to use NOS and compensate for the frequency drop, then a setting for 44.1 or a combined setting for 44.1/48 might be enough. So you would need only two (at maximum three) different configs. At double speed (>= 88.2 kHz), the roll-off takes place in a frequency range that our ears can no longer hear ..

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

I always end up with the sharp filter. The other filters mostly muddies and distort the sound somehow. To be honest, IMHO I see the filter option to be more of a "fun" feature. I see alot of ppl here take it seriously so respect to that. Always good to have options..

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

I have a Adi-2 dac unit with AKM and I right now I like the filter called Short Delay Low Dispersion.
Why? I quote the manual:

In theory, a filter should have as little phase deviation as possible over the frequency range, have as short a settling time as possible, an acceptable decay time, and provide the maximum possible frequency range without deviation. The stopband attenuation should be high to prevent aliasing. A latency as low as possible would extend the application possibilities to more than just listening to music.

The filter with the bulky name Short Delay Low Dispersion approaches this ideal quite well. It does not have the early treble attenuation of the slow filters (see chapter 31.4), has a shorter settling time than Slow, an average decay time like Sharp, a phase maximum of only 9° at late 18 kHz (basically phase-linear in the audible range), and a latency of only 10 samples, so that it is also well suited for professional real-time monitoring. This makes it much more than just a successful compromise.

Also, I just like this sound best!

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

Honestly, the difference is harder to hear with speakers, but with my Audeze headphones I can blindly switch between filters and hear the differences immediately.
I use the Slow filter because I often upsample when mastering and also when listening to music with Jriver.

In general, I also find the Slow Dispersion filter very good. A similar filter is also in Cirrus Logic Dacs, which are built into all iPhones and MacBooks, so the SD LD filter translates very well.

The SD Sharp filter overemphasizes the transients at low frequencies, whereas the Sharp filter underemphasizes. Therefore I do not like them.

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

I've set it to Sharp. Latency is not a problem for my kind of use.

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

I like slow or sd slow for listening and sd sharp for recording

ADI2, Digiface, ARC

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

As others have said, I find differences between the filters to be minimal. Nevertheless, I keep coming back to the "Brickwall" setting for my ESS ADI-2 DAC FS. It seems (to my ears) to have the best combination of natural and analogue sound (whatever the heck that means). I stream mostly classic Rock and Jazz. As always, your mileage may vary......

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

While I would agree the differences between filter settings might be small I would also assume it depends on the audio chain after the dac + the listening experience

ADI2, Digiface, ARC

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

slow is optimal for higher res content as with 44.1 khz there is still aliasing noise being reflected back into the audible spectrum. As KaiS said I prefer it too for the slightly clearer treble response. NOS has an even more perfect treble response in theory, but suffers from full intermodulation distortion artifacts from all the not-filtered aliases in the audible band, which is not worth the trade off for me.

I recently discovered that you can bypass the internal filtering of the RME by upscaling your source files to 700+ Khz on your computer with much heavier filters using your cpu/gpu (which has teraflops of computing power as opposed to the megaflops in the RME).
That way you can have a filter that makes a much better compromise between no aliasing noise vs good transient response.
The downside is that some of the RME's lovely DSP features get limited, you only have a 5-band EQ at that sample rate.

Of course the differences are very subtle, I cannot hear the difference on many tracks but for some it is an improvement to my ears. The software is called Hqplayer and has a 1 month free trial.

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

buwaldaf wrote:

slow is optimal for higher res content as with 44.1 khz there is still aliasing noise being reflected back into the audible spectrum. As KaiS said I prefer it too for the slightly clearer treble response. NOS has an even more perfect treble response in theory, but suffers from full intermodulation distortion artifacts from all the not-filtered aliases in the audible band, which is not worth the trade off for me.

I recently discovered that you can bypass the internal filtering of the RME by upscaling your source files to 700+ Khz on your computer with much heavier filters using your cpu/gpu (which has teraflops of computing power as opposed to the megaflops in the RME).
That way you can have a filter that makes a much better compromise between no aliasing noise vs good transient response.
The downside is that some of the RME's lovely DSP features get limited, you only have a 5-band EQ at that sample rate.

Of course the differences are very subtle, I cannot hear the difference on many tracks but for some it is an improvement to my ears. The software is called Hqplayer and has a 1 month free trial.

For this very slight difference, which most people probably can't perceive anyway, the effort to create huge files by upsampling is exaggerated, they are just unwieldy, don't get a better quality because of it and at the end of the day the high sample rate also limits some functions of the ADI-2 DAC/Pro, if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't do that and recommend enjoying the music rather than letting per-mille optimisations become an obsession. You also have to loosen up a bit with some things to be able to enjoy something.

In a live concert, not everything is always optimal, but it is still a great event in most cases...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

All the filters are only relevant for sample rates of 44.1 and 48 kHz.

From 88.2 kHz and up they are far enough out of the audio band to be inaudible.

At least for me, I don’t hear the slightest difference between the various filter, in this case.


According aliasing:
Most audio is already filtered during recording and does not have much content above 20 kHz.
Same applies to most studio microphones, and even the instruments don’t produce much there.

So, aliasing is of minor concern, I do receive the better impulse response as making the difference.

This coincides with my recording praxis:
Aligning the impulse response, e.g. of a multi-mic arrangement, largely clears up the result, sometimes beyond what is desirable in the sense of musicality.

20 (edited by buwaldaf 2022-06-13 10:09:27)

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

ramses wrote:

For this very slight difference, which most people probably can't perceive anyway, the effort to create huge files by upsampling is exaggerated, they are just unwieldy, don't get a better quality because of it and at the end of the day the high sample rate also limits some functions of the ADI-2 DAC/Pro, if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't do that and recommend enjoying the music rather than letting per-mille optimisations become an obsession. You also have to loosen up a bit with some things to be able to enjoy something.

In a live concert, not everything is always optimal, but it is still a great event in most cases...

The HQplayer software I mentioned does the upscaling in real time, it uses about 5-10% of my CPU so the fans don't come on, there's a 1 second playback delay, very minor effects. I agree that storing your entire music collection in 768 Khzs or DSD256 is a waste of space.

It's a matter of taste, audiophiles are notorious for being perfectionists. If "good enough" was all that's necessary everyone would simply have a 100 euro dac with the HD600 I think wink The software is quite pricey though, so personally i'm not sure yet if the difference it makes is worth it.

@KaiS I'm basing my aliasing comments on these measurements: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/09/m … ck_26.html

Because the slow filter doesn't fully attenuate until about 40khz, you see that the first alias is still not fully attenuated and causes intermodulation distortion in the audible band, there's a tiny peak around 5khz that's not there for the fast filters. Because real music is not just 2 test tones, I think this effect will be worse for real music.

Some people claim these tiny (-130db!) distortions are audible because they are over/undertones of the original signal, i'm not quite sure on whether they are. I do know that I percieve NOS to be muddied because of the aliases, but the effect should be significantly smaller for the slow filter.

21 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-13 20:07:02)

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

buwaldaf wrote:

@KaiS I'm basing my aliasing comments on these measurements: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/09/m … ck_26.html

Because the slow filter doesn't fully attenuate until about 40khz, you see that the first alias is still not fully attenuated and causes intermodulation distortion in the audible band, there's a tiny peak around 5khz that's not there for the fast filters. Because real music is not just 2 test tones, I think this effect will be worse for real music...

Less effect, energy above 20 kHz is very low in music.
Non in 44.1 kHz sample rate files.

I have yet to find out how he sends signals above Nyquist frequency into a DAC for his measurements.
I think this is not possible, so ...

Maybe he measures the ADC?
There are hints, but it’s not quite clear from his text - would not cover our interest here.

22 (edited by buwaldaf 2022-06-13 20:30:13)

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

KaiS wrote:

Less effect, energy above 20 kHz is very low in music.
Non in 44.1 kHz sample rate files.

I have yet to find out how he sends signals above Nyquist frequency into a DAC for his measurements.
I think this is not possible, so ...

Maybe he measures the ADC?
There are hints, but it’s not quite clear from his text - would not cover our interest here.

Any filter that does not attenuate 100% by Nyquist is by definition a leaky filter? the input signal is mirrored in the Nyquist frequency, so a 19khz test tone also produces a 25khz tone (first alias) if that one is not attenuated then it leaks back into the audible band through intermodulation distortion.

This has nothing to do with the amount of energy above 20khz, the original signal from 0 to 22.1khz is aliased in the 22.1 to 44.2 band, and there it needs to be filtered out.

As the slow filter only provides moderate attenuation in this range, we get intermodulation distortion.
This is exactly why 88.2 khz is nice if you like the slow filter, as then the first alias is not at 22.1 to 44.2 but at 44.2 to 88.2 where the slow filter is fully filtering it out and it gives no intermodulation distortion.

23 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-14 00:50:20)

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

buwaldaf wrote:

the input signal is mirrored in the Nyquist frequency, so a 19khz test tone also produces a 25khz tone (first alias) if that one is not attenuated then it leaks back into the audible band through intermodulation distortion.

But the amount of intermodulation distortions (IMD) in the audio band is defined and created by the nonlinearity of the following amplifier.

And those IMDs are always much lower than the ones created from the audio band content itself, as every reconstruction filter has some stop-band attention.

In extremo:
If you hot-drive a low NFB triode tube amp, you get up to several percent of IMDs from the normal audio, with some sub-percent mirror frequency related IMDs on top.

When using ADI-2’s headphones out, mirror frequency related IMDs are neglectable, because the amp has such a high linearity that even audio-band related IMDs are below of the DAC’s THD.

With every measured filter, the artifacts inside the audio band (green line, left of the 19 kHz column) are below -130 dBFS, nothing I would give a penny for.

This is why the NOS-filter (not measured unfortunately) makes sense, although it has a very low stopband attenuation.


These measurements include the artifacts from the re-digitalization through an ADI-2 Pro FS’s analog in, so real figures are probably even better for the pure DAC:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sSd4QbIKysI/X2hByJk3WWI/AAAAAAAAX6g/DlzZUDjYbAswkuuqta_fUn0NoRXJ2ZcFwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1957/RME%2BADI-2%2BPro%2BFS%2BR%2BBE%2B-%2BFilters%2B1-4%2BDFC.png

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

If I really listen hard, then I think I prefer Slow for rock, and Sharp for everything else.

Not much in it though

Re: What filter is your favorite and why?

KaiS wrote:
buwaldaf wrote:

@KaiS I'm basing my aliasing comments on these measurements: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2020/09/m … ck_26.html

Because the slow filter doesn't fully attenuate until about 40khz, you see that the first alias is still not fully attenuated and causes intermodulation distortion in the audible band, there's a tiny peak around 5khz that's not there for the fast filters. Because real music is not just 2 test tones, I think this effect will be worse for real music...

Less effect, energy above 20 kHz is very low in music.
Non in 44.1 kHz sample rate files.

I have yet to find out how he sends signals above Nyquist frequency into a DAC for his measurements.
I think this is not possible, so ...

Maybe he measures the ADC?
There are hints, but it’s not quite clear from his text - would not cover our interest here.

You don't (and you can't) feed the DAC with signals above fs/2, rather the DAC produces those signals all on its own.
You only need to run the measuring ADC at a (much) higher sample rate than the DAC under test to capture the mirrored components.