Topic: Atmos speaker delay control.

Hi there. I have a RME digiface USB that’s connected to a Ferrofish pulse 16 over Adat.

I run a 7.1.4 setup for Atmos using Logic and it works flawlessly.

I was just reading about the new antelope galaxy interface which looks like a similar solution to my setup but with two (possibly three) major advantages.

The antelope galaxy allows you to delay each speaker output to optimise the speaker output.

The galaxy also allows bass management by adjusting the crossover of each speaker individually.

The galaxy also allows volume control of all speaker outputs on one dial.

Are any of these three things possible to acheive with the RME digiface USB I have?

If not what product would you recommend?

Cheers.

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

You can’t do that in Totalmix but you can all of it in Logic.

On the master output after then atmos plugin insert a 7.1.4 Sample delay plugin and this will give you time delay per speaker. Then after that insert a 7.1.4 Linear Phase EQ plugin and this will give you bass management via it’s LPF/ HPF. Once you’re all set up don’t forget to save the preset in each plugin so you set it on any session you want.

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

paulnajar wrote:

You can’t do that in Totalmix but you can all of it in Logic.

On the master output after then atmos plugin insert a 7.1.4 Sample delay plugin and this will give you time delay per speaker. Then after that insert a 7.1.4 Linear Phase EQ plugin and this will give you bass management via it’s LPF/ HPF. Once you’re all set up don’t forget to save the preset in each plugin so you set it on any session you want.

Thanks for the reply. Do you have any tips on how to calculate the required delay for each speaker?
I read the 1ms for each foot further from the closest speaker but I’m unsure if this information is accurate or not.

4 (edited by paulnajar 2022-06-27 11:34:56)

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

Thats right it’s the speed of sound which yes is about 1ms of time per foot of distance travelled. You need a tape measure to get close to accurate and it’s easier to measure along the ground than through the air so mark an X on the ground under where your head will be then get to work with your tape measure to know the different distances for each speaker.

I have a 7.1.2 speaker system currently and this system works pretty good for me. Alos the multichannel gain plugin on the master is helpful for proof of concept because it has phase flip buttons. Using pink noise in the test oscillator plugin if you flip L & R one side out of phase you should hear a really good out of phase response if your delays are correct. Same is true for the other LR pairs - surround, rear surround, height front and height rear.

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

Great advice. Thank you.
I’m sure they’ll be more audio interfaces, like the antelope galaxy, that’ll do it all for you, in the future.
I’d love a trinnov setup but the costs are quite frankly ridiculous for what it does.

Acousticians say that you should never sit in the middle of a room but to be able to get the best centred location in a 7.1.4 setup that’s pretty much the best place to sit…(for me anyway)

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

Yes the Trinnov seems very expensive for sure and now that Apple Monterey 12.4 can decode atmos streams without the need for external hardware that makes one more piece of the puzzle solved. I can listen to atmos Apple Music, Netflix, Stan, TV+ etc without any external decoder.

In my room all of the 7.1.2 speakers are all set to the same distance of 1.9 metres so no delays necessary. This means technically that the height speakers are maybe a bit too wide of the square due to my lower ceiling but at least I don't need to deal with speaker delays.

One more thing. When getting Logic to talk to the RME driver directly I found the speaker output assignment was unpredictable. For example if in Logic I sent a height speaker to output 9 that appeared as playback channel 33 in Totalmix (I have a Madiface with 64 IO). When I wanted to explore listening to Apple Music and streaming movies in Atmos it didn't work initially. Research uncovered that unless your audio IO presents to Apple Music and streaming web apps as 16 IO Atmos did not work. For me that meant adding Rogue Amoeba Loopback virtual interface set as 16 x 16 and assign that as audio device in preferences and then got loopback to send to RME.

For Atmos mixing in Logic I also do the same send Logic to Loopback and Loopback to RME. This made Logic speaker outputs numbering more predictable.

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

7 (edited by TheDuke 2022-06-28 22:28:16)

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

paulnajar wrote:

Yes the Trinnov seems very expensive for sure and now that Apple Monterey 12.4 can decode atmos streams without the need for external hardware that makes one more piece of the puzzle solved. I can listen to atmos Apple Music, Netflix, Stan, TV+ etc without any external decoder.

In my room all of the 7.1.2 speakers are all set to the same distance of 1.9 metres so no delays necessary. This means technically that the height speakers are maybe a bit too wide of the square due to my lower ceiling but at least I don't need to deal with speaker delays.

One more thing. When getting Logic to talk to the RME driver directly I found the speaker output assignment was unpredictable. For example if in Logic I sent a height speaker to output 9 that appeared as playback channel 33 in Totalmix (I have a Madiface with 64 IO). When I wanted to explore listening to Apple Music and streaming movies in Atmos it didn't work initially. Research uncovered that unless your audio IO presents to Apple Music and streaming web apps as 16 IO Atmos did not work. For me that meant adding Rogue Amoeba Loopback virtual interface set as 16 x 16 and assign that as audio device in preferences and then got loopback to send to RME.

For Atmos mixing in Logic I also do the same send Logic to Loopback and Loopback to RME. This made Logic speaker outputs numbering more predictable.

One minute. You have Atmos music working with on Monterey?
I can’t for the life of me get it to work.
I currently use an Apple TV connected to a marantz av7702 mk2 pre/pro (with balanced xlrs outputs) to a Ferrofish pulse 16 to my 7.0.4 active Adam speakers.
All I get is 5.1 when I check totalfx.
I also can’t get Atmos out of the hdmi on the m1 MacBook Pro to the marantz either.
Do you have a setup guide to get this to work?

Does this Method work over Adat with my digiface usb ?
https://youtu.be/AsR9i6xRv5U
What am I doing wrong here?

Also I assigned the speaker outputs in audio/midi settings in MacOS. I did notice the soaker outputs in osx were different to the outputs in Logic, for a few of them anyway…….

Any advice would be greatly appreciated…….

8 (edited by paulnajar 2022-06-28 23:12:03)

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

If you’re doing like in the video I can tell you exactly why Atmos is not working straight our of Apple Music and streaming web apps.

First is you need to be on Monterey 12.4.
In Apple Music the Atmos setting needs to be on Automatic.
In AudioMidi setup I see he has 24 outputs selected in the speakers window. This won’t work with streaming apps but it will allow Logic to deliver 7.1.4 Atmos

To get streaming apps to output Atmos as I said in my previous post Apple Music etc needs to only see 16 outputs in the driver so sending straight to RME won’t work because Digiface at 48Khz presents 32 outputs for example.
Get Rogue Amoeba Loopback virtual audio driver software.
Configure as 16 x 16 virtual device.
Configure loopback output to send to RME
In System preferences select Loopback as audio output device
Play Apple Music etc and you will see 12 channels in Totalmix playback channels.

No external Atmos decoding hardware required.

Done

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

Fascinating, I’ll give it a try.

To be fair though, I think I’ll still use the Apple TV as my pc is connected to my marantz av7002mk2 over hdmi for watching back Atmos movies.

Seems crazy that the method you mention works but I can’t go hdmi out of my m1 max MacBook 2021 and get Atmos to work.

Is it licensing reasons fo you think?
Have they enabled this feature for music producers to have a way of actually listening to their atmos bounce/render without having to buy a decoder?
Is it just a bug?

Either way, thanks for the reply.
Just seen your website and it’s very interesting. Very similar to what so do here in the UK.

10 (edited by paulnajar 2022-06-29 00:24:35)

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

Do you mean a bug that Apple's apps require a 16 x 16 driver to send to? That aspect may become more robust over time I suspect.

A little birdie inside Apple told a friend who told me that the Mac decoding atmos is no bug. Apple are investing big in Atmos and so it was a missing link not being able to play and listen to streaming content on Mac without tons of expensive hardware.

It's been a huge gap in the uptake of atmos in general before Apple enabled Mac based Atmos decoding. Before this a music maker could go to the expense of buying all the speakers to mix on before realising they have no way of playing back other professional content for learning.

Binaural is one thing but actual multi speaker atmos sounds so much better.

It appears Apple have licensed the Dolby Labs renderer as you see it as an option in Logic's atmos plugin so the licensing is already done it appears.

I had a look at your Marantz Receiver. Nice looking box but how do you get from the Marantz outputs to your speakers if they're connected to your Ferrofish Pulse?

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

I thought that it was a DRM reason why you couldn’t playback commercial Dolby Atmos on anything apart from through a closed system over HDMI.

On PC you cannot listen to music in Atmos with Tidal, Apple Music or Amazon etc. even over hdmi.
Only games and movies support Atmos on PC.

The hdmi output on this 16” M1 Max MacBook Pro won’t allow me to playback Atmos with the marantz either.
I read that only the Apple TV could playback Apple Music in Atmos on a speaker setup such as 7.1.4.
It does work flawlessly for me (as in the video) Tidal also works flawlessly with the Apple TV hardware over hdmi.
The latest MacBook hdmi output is hdmi is only 2.0 but the Apple TV box is hdmi 2.1 and works perfectly (as you can see in my video)

My setup is the most affordable setup I could find.

My PC, Apple TV, Xbox etc are connected to the marantz hdmi inputs. Pc for Atmos movies and Atmos games, Apple TV for Atmos music.

The marantz balanced xlr outputs connect to the balanced ferrofish TRS inputs. Then ferrofish TRS outputs connect to my 7.0.4 Adam active monitors.
The ferrofish pulse 16 is also connected to my RME digiface USB over ADAT.
This allows me to connect my MacBook via a single USB cable to the digiface usb and use the RME total mix matrix to route the audio anywhere I want and make Atmos mixes in Logic.
It works flawlessly.
I even have different snapshots in total mix for soloing overhead speakers or just the surrounds etc. (you can also see this in the video)
I then have the hdmi output of the marantz going to the projector.

That way I can watch movies in Atmos, listen to music in Atmos, play games in Atmos and make music in Logic in Atmos on the same speakers using just the marantz the ferrofish and the RME digiface usb hardware (as well as the speakers)

Re: Atmos speaker delay control.

TheDuke wrote:

The galaxy also allows volume control of all speaker outputs on one dial.

Just create fader group in total mix with all outputs which go to speakers.
I have my first two speakers (Left and Right) assigned to the main mix.

Using an RME Arc USB I can control overall system volume.

You can also connect any midi controller.