Topic: Sharp filter weirdness

Hello, I'm using akm version of the dac, I have tried sd filters but none of them sounded that good, after checking the manual I switched to sharp since it is supposed to be the most reference sounding one, but weird thing happens if I use it in combination with focal elear, from time to time there's noise in the background that sounds kinda like old crt screen, it's most noticeable on electronic music in general, but especially in NES games, If I continue listening when I notice it I get tinnitus on one ear and after a while I get it on other ear too, and it lasts for hours, sometimes days. I tried borrowing different amps (I have RebelAmp) it happens on all of them (Audio gd master 9, topping a90, AAA789), but it doesn't happen on the other headphones (Sennheiser hd800, Harmonicdyne G200) just elears. Switching to slow filter, completely fixes the issue and it makes imaging a bit more focused and 3d like, it also sounds just a small touch warmer, and the issue doesn't happen on files that have sampling rate of 88.2khz or higher no matter the filter settings.
So can someone explain what's going on?

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Sebastian.Ellis wrote:

Switching to slow filter, completely fixes the issue and it makes imaging a bit more focused and 3d like, it also sounds just a small touch warmer, and the issue doesn't happen on files that have sampling rate of 88.2khz or higher no matter the filter settings.
So can someone explain what's going on?

Please read the whole post

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

That tinnitus doesnt sound good! I cant explain this, but it sounds like you are straining your ears. Take level down and upsample at PC whenever you can. If I got tinnitus from my HP´s I would take it very seriously!

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Happy_amateur wrote:

That tinnitus doesnt sound good! I cant explain this, but it sounds like you are straining your ears. Take level down and upsample at PC whenever you can. If I got tinnitus from my HP´s I would take it very seriously!

I can't upsample with any reasonable quality on pc because windows sigh, I use wasapi exclusive (bit perfect mode). My listening levels are around 70 to 75db which shouldn't be too loud, besides I don't get tinnitus with slow filter, I'm just curious why does it happen with fast filter.

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Maybe a doctor can answer this.

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

6 (edited by KaiS 2022-07-08 22:45:41)

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Sebastian.Ellis wrote:

...I switched to sharp since it is supposed to be the most reference sounding one, but weird thing happens if I use it in combination with focal elear, ... I notice it I get tinnitus on one ear and after a while I get it on other ear too, and it lasts for hours, sometimes days.
...slow filter ...
and the issue doesn't happen on files that have sampling rate of 88.2khz or higher no matter the filter settings.
So can someone explain what's going on?

Your whole description is consistent:

Slow filter has better impulse response than Sharp, which tends to smear the upmost treble, almost like a resonance.

Focal Elear’s aluminum-magnesium diagram has treble resonances too, seems like a bad coincidence.

If electronic game sounds trigger those resonances, one of your ears receives them, for acoustics reasons the other ear doesn’t.

Now your brain fills the gap, by generating the tinnitus.
Missing frequencies in one ear is one of the most common triggers for tinnitus.

You found a way to avoid this, using slow filter or different headphones.


For healing of this type of acute tinnitus a simple procedure might help:

With your hand, form a half-pipe link from your mouth to the ear with tinnitus.
Now, by blowing air through your teeth and lips, make soft, repeated sssh..-noises, ca. 1.5s on, 0.5s off (exact value doesn’t matter), at about the tone and level of the tinnitus, until it disappear or gets better.

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

KaiS wrote:
Sebastian.Ellis wrote:

...I switched to sharp since it is supposed to be the most reference sounding one, but weird thing happens if I use it in combination with focal elear, ... I notice it I get tinnitus on one ear and after a while I get it on other ear too, and it lasts for hours, sometimes days.
...slow filter ...
and the issue doesn't happen on files that have sampling rate of 88.2khz or higher no matter the filter settings.
So can someone explain what's going on?

Your whole description is consistent:

Slow filter has better impulse response than Sharp, which tends to smear the upmost treble, almost like a resonance.

Focal Elear’s aluminum-magnesium diagram has treble resonances too, seems like a bad coincidence.

If electronic game sounds trigger those resonances, one of your ears receives them, for acoustics reasons the other ear doesn’t.

Now your brain fills the gap, by generating the tinnitus.
Missing frequencies in one ear is one of the most common triggers for tinnitus.

You found a way to avoid this, using slow filter or different headphones.


For healing of this type of acute tinnitus a simple procedure might help:

With your hand, form a half-pipe link from your mouth to the ear with tinnitus.
Now, by blowing air through your teeth and lips, make soft, repeated sssh..-noises, ca. 1.5s on, 0.5s off (exact value doesn’t matter), at about the tone and level of the tinnitus, until it disappear or gets better.

Thank you, I also did some searching and ppl say sharp filters produce "ringing artifacts" on square waves, NES games are all mono but their sound is synthesized by mixing square and triangle waves so it might have something to do with it?

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Sebastian.Ellis wrote:

...ppl say sharp filters produce "ringing artifacts" on square waves, NES games are all mono but their sound is synthesized by mixing square and triangle waves so it might have something to do with it?

This is exactly it.
Look at ADI-2 DAC’s manual page 57, there you can see the ringing of Sharp vs. Slow Filter.

It happens only for the upmost frequencies that the chosen sample rate can transport, ca. 20 kHz if you run on 44.1 kHz.

This is why it disappears if you run on 88,2 kHz sample rate, then the ringing appears on ca. 40 kHz only, which no-one can hear.

9 (edited by ramses 2022-07-09 09:22:36)

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

KaiS wrote:
Sebastian.Ellis wrote:

...I switched to sharp since it is supposed to be the most reference sounding one, but weird thing happens if I use it in combination with focal elear, ... I notice it I get tinnitus on one ear and after a while I get it on other ear too, and it lasts for hours, sometimes days.
...slow filter ...
and the issue doesn't happen on files that have sampling rate of 88.2khz or higher no matter the filter settings.
So can someone explain what's going on?

Now your brain fills the gap, by generating the tinnitus. Missing frequencies in one ear is one of the most common triggers for tinnitus. You found a way to avoid this, using slow filter or different headphones.

For healing of this type of acute tinnitus a simple procedure might help: With your hand, form a half-pipe link from your mouth to the ear with tinnitus. Now, by blowing air through your teeth and lips, make soft, repeated sssh..-noises, ca. 1.5s on, 0.5s off (exact value doesn’t matter), at about the tone and level of the tinnitus, until it disappear or gets better.

Regarding this point, you could also use noisers that are specifically tuned to the tinnitus frequency.
Since the whole thing can also be accompanied by hearing loss, there are also combinations of hearing aid and noiser.

Such a tip for quick help in everyday life is certainly not bad, but I am not sure whether you can really hit a tinitus tone in higher pitches very well, unless you mean that the hissing device has a wide spectrum of frequency components, as in noise. Could still think that a noise is more targeted though.

Found this information here when googling for the term "noiser" as I was not 100% sure whether its this name/term for such a device: https://www.hoeren-heute.de/tinnitus-no … AwEALw_wcB

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

My hint is first aid for occasional tinnitus, before it settles, and doesn’t need any hardware that might not be at hand.

The stimulus doesn’t need to exactly hit the frequency, as noise covers a broader band anyway.


The mentioned kind of tinnitus origins from the brains expectation that about the same spectrum has to be present on both ears, like in nature.

But- this is not always the case with headphones.
The strong left/right separation and different high frequency cup, driver and pinnae resonances left and right can create the mentioned problem.


As always, the brain is filling up missing information based on former experience, to make, what it thinks, the received sensation consistent.
The mechanism is based of the brain’s pattern detection and recognition.


Focal Elear suffers from a lot of high frequency ringing, more than others, so it tends to trigger this effect.

Focal Elear’s CDS shows a lot of HF abnormalities, more than others:
https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/csd-elear1.png?w=1228

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

A lot of useful information so far, thank you. I wanna reiterate that tinnitus I get isn't permanent it usually goes away after 8 to 12 hours, and it hasn't reappeared since I switched to slow filter.

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Sebastian.Ellis wrote:

...tinnitus I get isn't permanent it usually goes away after 8 to 12 hours, and it hasn't reappeared since I switched to slow filter.

Nice to hear, so stay away from everything that triggers it, to avoid tinnitus becoming permanent.

BTW: listening too loud can cause ear-ringing too.
The ringing is from hair-cells (the sensory receptors of the auditory system) that are about to die, which do NOT regenerate.

So if you get this it‘s a red lamp warning sign.

13 (edited by Sebastian.Ellis 2022-07-09 19:48:46)

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

It has been brought up multiple times, I don't listen to stuff loud, it's usually around ~70db, 75db max.
For those that don't know here are some examples of nes music, if the filter is set to sharp I start hearing faint high pitch noise whistle like sound almost immediately that tuns into louder and louder whine like tinnitus the longer I listen to it, but there isn't even a hint of in with slow filter.
https://youtu.be/WJRoRt155mA
https://youtu.be/e2oZtvjg5oA
https://youtu.be/ObluR-iekVU

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Terrible, it makes your toenails curl. 10s and my tolerance threshold is exceeded.
And this although my Audeze LCD-3 actually sounds very rounded and has no sharpness.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Sebastian.Ellis wrote:

...For those that don't know here are some examples of nes music, if the filter is set to sharp I start hearing faint high pitch noise whistle like sound almost immediately that tuns into louder and louder whine like tinnitus the longer I listen to it, but there isn't even a hint of in with slow filter.
https://youtu.be/WJRoRt155mA
https://youtu.be/e2oZtvjg5oA
https://youtu.be/ObluR-iekVU

I can clearly hear a faint high pitch whine, like some kind of aliasing during sound synthesis.
For me it’s level doesn’t increase over time, so maybe a psychoacoustic effect on your side, triggered tinnitus.

Or you hear something different that is even higher pitched, beyond my hearing ability.


This type of music was made for being played through the very tiny, very limited speaker inside the Nintendo Game Boy, not on high-quality headphones.
Hearing it on my STAX SR-009 is a special treat smile

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

KaiS wrote:
Sebastian.Ellis wrote:

...For those that don't know here are some examples of nes music, if the filter is set to sharp I start hearing faint high pitch noise whistle like sound almost immediately that tuns into louder and louder whine like tinnitus the longer I listen to it, but there isn't even a hint of in with slow filter.
https://youtu.be/WJRoRt155mA
https://youtu.be/e2oZtvjg5oA
https://youtu.be/ObluR-iekVU

I can clearly hear a faint high pitch whine, like some kind of aliasing during sound synthesis.
For me it’s level doesn’t increase over time, so maybe a psychoacoustic effect on your side, triggered tinnitus.

Or you hear something different that is even higher pitched, beyond my hearing ability.


This type of music was made for being played through the very tiny, very limited speaker inside the Nintendo Game Boy, not on high-quality headphones.
Hearing it on my STAX SR-009 is a special treat smile

It was made to be played on tv speaker but nes had an single rca audio out so there was nothing stopping you if you waned to hook it up to hi-fi and put tv between the speakers, that music has a certain charm to it, I like nes and snes and genesis games.

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

KaiS wrote:

For healing of this type of acute tinnitus a simple procedure might help:

With your hand, form a half-pipe link from your mouth to the ear with tinnitus.
Now, by blowing air through your teeth and lips, make soft, repeated sssh..-noises, ca. 1.5s on, 0.5s off (exact value doesn’t matter), at about the tone and level of the tinnitus, until it disappear or gets better.

Hi Kai - can you pls explain this in German or point me to some resources where I can look it up?! Would be appreciated - having a tinnitus crisis here and need some help. PM ok too.

Thx

18 (edited by KaiS 2022-08-06 01:50:16)

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

NoisyNarrowBandDevice wrote:
KaiS wrote:

For healing of this type of acute tinnitus a simple procedure might help:

With your hand, form a half-pipe link from your mouth to the ear with tinnitus.
Now, by blowing air through your teeth and lips, make soft, repeated sssh..-noises, ca. 1.5s on, 0.5s off (exact value doesn’t matter), at about the tone and level of the tinnitus, until it disappear or gets better.

Hi Kai - can you pls explain this in German or point me to some resources where I can look it up?! Would be appreciated - having a tinnitus crisis here and need some help. PM ok too.

Thx

Die Ursache von Tinnitus ist häufig eine deutlich ungleiche Frequenz-Charakteristik zwischen linkem und rechten Ohr.

Das Gehirn geht aber immer davon aus, dass auf beiden Ohren im Mittel in etwa das gleiche Spektrum vorhanden ist.

Wenn z.B. im linken Ohr, durch eine Schädigung, ein Frequenzbereich schlecht übertragen wird, ergänzt das Gehirn die fehlenden Klänge.
Das ist dann der Tinnitus.


Akut, ohne technische Hilfsmittel, kann man den „fehlenden“ Klang selbst auf das Ohr übertragen, das bringt häufig eine Linderung:

Man hält eine Hand zwischen Mund und Ohr, formt dabei eine Art Halb-Röhre zur Schall-Weiterleitung.
Nun erzeugt man durch Zischen wischen den Zähnen ein Geräusch im Bereich des Tinnitus.
Wichtig ist, das Geräusch immer wieder zu unterbrechen, 1,5s an - 0,5s aus ist ein effektives Verhältnis.
Das muss nicht laut sein, etwa wie der Tinnitus oder etwas lauter.


Für eine effektive Langzeitbehandlung macht man etwas Vergleichbares mit einer App und einem (billigen) Ohrhörer, oder man lässt sich ein extrem teures medizinisches Gerät verschreiben sad

Gut ist, wenn man das Ersatz-Signal selbst einstellen kann.
Eine Mischung aus Sinuston und gefiltertem Rauschen wäre z.B typisch.

Die Behandlung dauert eine Weile, am besten über Nacht drinlassen.

19 (edited by bejoro 2022-08-06 08:23:40)

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Bitte vorsichtig sein mit solchen medizinischen Ratschlägen.

Tinnitus kann verschiedene Ursachen haben. Die Therapie muss entsprechend angepasst werden.

Beispiel: Tinnitus-Neuro-Therapie, hier werden bestimmte Frequenzen herausgefiltert, z. B. mittels einer App. Aber diese Frequenzen müssen vorher durch einen Spezialisten (Arzt) bestimmt werden. Hierfür sollte man jedoch auch die Studienlage prüfen.

Bei länger andauernden Störgeräuschen sollte man unbedingt einen Arzt aufsuchen.

Warm regards,
Bernhard Rother
enjoy-audio.de

20 (edited by KaiS 2022-08-06 13:59:55)

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Ist im RME-Forum sowieso ziemlich off-topic.

Hab’s nur erwähnt, als akut-Hilfe, weil im Start-Posting gleich Tinnitus angesprochen wurde.
Hat ein paar Musiker-Kollegen gut geholfen.

Mit einem leisen Klang kann man auch nichts kaputt machen.
Man merkt ziemlich schnell, ob es hilft.

Generell, das Internet ist für medizinische Fragen selten ein guter Ort.
Bei Tinnitus beisst sich die Schulmedizin aber auch oft die Zähne aus.

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

Danke Kai. Röhre zwischen Mund und Ohr ist mir bisschen unklar. Einfach quasi eine nicht ganz geschlossene Faust an der Wange?

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

NoisyNarrowBandDevice wrote:

Danke Kai. Röhre zwischen Mund und Ohr ist mir bisschen unklar. Einfach quasi eine nicht ganz geschlossene Faust an der Wange?

Geh zum Ohren Arzt Deines Vertrauens ... Erstmal ne valide Diagnose und ärztliche Betreuung. Vielleicht auch ne Reha...

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Sharp filter weirdness

NoisyNarrowBandDevice wrote:

Danke Kai. Röhre zwischen Mund und Ohr ist mir bisschen unklar. Einfach quasi eine nicht ganz geschlossene Faust an der Wange?

Nein, quasi Hand vor den Mund, Richtung Ohr.

Aber wirklich:
bei akutem Tinnitus zum Arzt!
Kann z.B. ein Ohr-Infarkt oder eine Infektion des Innenohrs sein, dann kann und muss der Arzt sofort mit einer Behandlung beginnen.