• Registered: 2022-10-22
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Topic: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

A widely recognized reference book, "Sound Reproduction - the Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" by Floyd E. Toole,evaluates as "wrong" to significantly compensate for high frequencies in a loudness compensation scheme (chap 4.4.1, 3rd edition). The book offers empirical and convincing evidence to support this claim.

The ADI-2 DAC, however, compensates *symmetrically* both low and high frequencies, as the curves on graph 31.7 in the device manual (page 58) show.

Can RME explain why this choice? Do you rely upon some evidence or principles that contradict the abovementioned claim? If yes, is it published and peer-reviewed material?

Thank you.

2 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

The evidence is the ears/hearing of many people, especially but not only older ones. If you don't like it set it to 0 dB gain for treble - problem solved. That's exactly why it is adjustable, to better match anyone's taste and ears.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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3 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-10-22 21:13:20)

  • KaiS
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

The discussion about Loudness’ treble boost or not goes on since the early days of HiFi - so more than half of a century, literally.
Important at that time, cause Loudness parameter were being locked into hardware.

Just because one “expert” has an opinion about it makes no final decision.


The good thing - with ADI-2 you have full control about all Loudness parameters.
Try yourself and let your ears be the judge.

Maybe repot back here once you made up your mind.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2022-09-29
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

As a newbie to this DAC I am very happy with the loudness function! ! The ability to adjust it is a great idea and it's very well developed. I'm not sure why some question it....
This DAC continues to impress me more and more as time goes on and I learn all the options it has. Sound has no defined parameters and to have the choice to taylor to your liking is very pleasing

  • From: Switzerland, Zürich
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

This is due to the ear-curve.
First measurements were by Fletcher-Munson around 1930 (Belll Labs).
Now its standardized in ISO226 with the average of huge amount of measurements.
Thats the reason to boost bass and treble.
Clearly its an average. If your ear does not fit the curve you may adjiust.

See here

https://fr.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/ … our-signal

  • Registered: 2022-10-31
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

I managed once but cannot anymore get to the LD settings, I play with the buttons & knobs but I don't remember how I got there.
Could someone help ?
Thanks

  • Registered: 2021-05-29
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

I/0 >Line Out>Setings>Loudness...

8 Reply by tooppy (edited by tooppy 2022-10-31 17:54:02)

  • Registered: 2022-10-31
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

@radnev Thanks you for your reply, but it is not there, I find everything else but not LD sad sad sad

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-10-31 18:04:09)

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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

tooppy wrote:

@radnev Thanks you for your reply, but it is not there, I find everything else but not LD sad sad sad

Manual ch 5.4 ... at a certain point you need to turn encoder 2 to toggle between "Settings, PEQ, Bass/Treble, Loudness".

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2022-10-31
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

ramses wrote:
tooppy wrote:

@radnev Thanks you for your reply, but it is not there, I find everything else but not LD sad sad sad

Manual ch 5.4 ... at a certain point you need to turn encoder 2 to toggle between "Settings, PEQ, Bass/Treble, Loudness".

I downloaded the latest version, but I already had it installed. Anyway, I installed it again.
Then in the manual at ch5.4 is a table and I do not have what is pictured. The Encoder 2 change the values on the particular setting I am on, but never gives me the possibility to do what you describe.
Encoder 1 just gives me the choice between Line Out, Phones or IEM.

I am lost here.

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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

tooppy wrote:
ramses wrote:
tooppy wrote:

@radnev Thanks you for your reply, but it is not there, I find everything else but not LD sad sad sad

Manual ch 5.4 ... at a certain point you need to turn encoder 2 to toggle between "Settings, PEQ, Bass/Treble, Loudness".

I downloaded the latest version, but I already had it installed. Anyway, I installed it again.
Then in the manual at ch5.4 is a table and I do not have what is pictured. The Encoder 2 change the values on the particular setting I am on, but never gives me the possibility to do what you describe.
Encoder 1 just gives me the choice between Line Out, Phones or IEM.

I am lost here.

What device do you have (exactly) and what is the firmware version of it?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-11-01 01:03:31)

  • KaiS
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

tooppy wrote:

I managed once but cannot anymore get to the LD settings, I play with the buttons & knobs but I don't remember how I got there.

The path to Loudness is:
I/O / (Main-, Phones- or IEM-) Output  / Loudness /

The setting is independent for Main-, Phones- or IEM- Output.

Watch out for the circled number on the right side to determine which Encoder, 1 or 2, to push or turn to navigate there.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2022-10-31
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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

Thanks to all for your help.....I finally manage, it is under I/O.
While I am at it, any of have a prefered setting?
I didn't try yet to change anything, I wanted to check the default settings as I previously badly messed up the all thing.
I usually listen at -44 or below, -30 is very very loud for me.

14 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-11-01 18:48:43)

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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

tooppy wrote:

Thanks to all for your help.....I finally manage, it is under I/O.
While I am at it, any of have a prefered setting?
[...]
I usually listen at -44 or below, -30 is very very loud for me.

The manual describes exactly how to adjust the loudness, have you ever read it?

tooppy wrote:

I didn't try yet to change anything, I wanted to check the default settings as I previously badly messed up the all thing.

Store your settings in a user profile, then you can restore them at any time.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

15 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-11-01 19:57:04)

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Re: Loudness compensation curve - why treble ?

tooppy wrote:

....
While I am at it, any of have a prefered setting?
...
I usually listen at -44 or below, -30 is very very loud for me.

Start at “Low Vol Ref” set to -64 dB, dial up from there until the sound is satisfactory.
At “Low Vol Ref” -44 dB, Loudness would be fully engaged.

KaiS's Website