1 Topic by bighyunwoo (edited by bighyunwoo 2022-11-12 20:06:35)

  • Registered: 2022-11-10
  • Posts: 11

Topic: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

recently I found out the term 'asio direct monitoring'

As a keyboard player, I'm a bit sensitive on the latencies.

ofc, I can use the direct monitoring on Totalmix, I should listen my piano vst.

1. So, is it possible in UFX+, or just for the steinberg interfaces?

2. IF I use  steinberg audio interfaces with the asio direct monitoring, is it faster than the RME's? (even the 32 samples?) if so is the advantage of short latency of RME worthless?

  • Registered: 2022-10-08
  • Posts: 62

Re: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

With 3rd party out of the way the faster you will get.

doing your monitoring through TM has the lowest to 0 latency and the best way to monitor, so plugging your synth into your RME unit then listening from the the output of your Unit.

  • Registered: 2022-11-10
  • Posts: 11

Re: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

thx but, I'm using vsti for playing my keyboards. So I'm asking

  • mkok
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2020-11-04
  • Posts: 633

Re: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

The RME drivers allow really low latency. I use my Babyface pro fs at 128 samples buffers which still gives me around 3ms

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-11-13 08:38:08)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,214

Re: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

In the manual in ch 25.1 you can find this information:

"Mixing of the input signal to the playback signal (complete ASIO Direct Monitoring). RME is not only the pioneer of ADM, but also offers the most complete implementation of the ADM functions."

In ASIO Direct Monitoring mode, the monitoring is done in the audio hardware in near-zero latency.
It takes the input signal on the interface and sends it straight to the headphone and line outputs on the device.

Why near-zero latency? The latency for A/D and D/A conversion is unavoidable, but very low with modern converters.
Extremely low if you compare this with the complete RTL.

Signal flow comparison:
ADM:              A/D and D/A conversion on the recording interface.
Without ADM: A/D conversion, transport over USB/FW/TB to the application, from the application back over USB/FW/TB, D/A conversion.

The section "40.2 Latency and Monitoring" (in every manual) gives you an overview about the converter latencies according to sample rate (and different AD/DA filter if this is selectable in some cases).
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/fface_ufxplus_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/fface_ufxplus_e.pdf

The sum of A/D and D/A is the value for your latency for direct monitoring:
0.26+0.15ms = 0.41ms at 48 kHz
0.13+0.07ms = 0.20ms at 96 kHz
0.052+0.036  = 0.09ms at 192 kHz

In one of my use cases, the 0.28+0.16 = 0.44ms (@44.1 kHz) do not hurt to even construct a parallel effect loop for my guitar amp.

See also the section 9.3 "Kown Problems"

"RME devices support ASIO Direct Monitoring (ADM). Please note that not all programs support ADM completely or error-free. The most often reported problem is the wrong behaviour of panorama in a stereo channel. Also, try to avoid setting the TotalMix FX hardware outputs (third row) to mono mode. This will most likely break ADM compatibility."

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2022-11-10
  • Posts: 11

Re: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

@ramses Thx so much

So, I catched that I can use ADM in my RME

But then, what is the exact differences between the hardware monitoring(controlled by Totalmix) and ADM?

So I use ADM then Can I listen all the sounds from DAW without latencies? Including the vsti?




Thank you

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-11-13 08:39:37)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,214

Re: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

You're welcome.

Please re-read, I added more information into my posting #5 https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 69#p193769

There is functional no difference in terms of signal flow and low latency.
The difference is, how and where you operate it.

In TotalMix FX, you would need to create a dedicated routing for this particular monitoring.
When having a working ADM you only need to push the speaker symbol in the DAW which is faster and more comfortably and doesn't require a change of routing in TM FX.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2022-11-10
  • Posts: 11

Re: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

Thx so much @Ramses

I read it again and again but still bit confused .. (sorry for my poor english, it's not my 1st language)

LEt me talk about it more precisely.

I understand that I can directly monitor the input sound via total mix (WE call it Direct monitoring)

ANd if I use the ADM, Can I listen the sound of my vsti, and the vst plugins like Direct monitoring regardless of the latency?

Like that I Can listen the input sources without latencies through Totlamix(Direct monitoring)?

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2022-11-13 09:48:24)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 13,214

Re: Can I use Asio direct monitoring in Cubase with my ufx+

We talked about latency for the case, when the audio source is connected to an analog input of your recording interface.
We compared
- ADM - signal flow local on your audio interface vs
- non-ADM with full RTL (converter latency IN/OUT, 2x transport over USB/FW/TB) and processing time on DAW

VSTi is a different case because the signal flow differs and latency has slightly different components.

Signal flow for a VSTi:

If you are using a MIDI keyboard two more steps
1. you hit a key on your MIDI master keyboard
2. the digital information is being transferred through MIDI to your DAW

If you have already a MIDI track with MIDI notes, then it starts here:
3. the computer has to process the virtual instrument according to MIDI notes which creates digital audio according to MIDI note information
4. the latency depends on
  - sample rate being used, double and quad speed means more data to process in the same time
  - how complex the processing  and
  - how fast the single thread performance of your computer and
  - how loaded the CPU core is where the sound for your VSTi is being created / processed
  - whether drivers on your computer are well written or block the CPU (-> DPC latencies)

5. If you would like to monitor this created/processed sound, it needs to be transported from the DAW/application through the audio driver, in this case the RME ASIO driver. The latency depends heavily on the selected buffersize.
On Windows Machines, this is the ASIO buffersize. But Apple also has buffer sizes that need to be adjusted according to the sample rate and complexity of  a project.
6. On the recording interface you have the converter latency for D/A.

So the remarkable differences in case of VSTi are
- different signal flow...
- you have to go at least one time through USB/FW/TB which is a remarkable difference because of e.g. ASIO buffersize or other buffersizes (Apple)
- when using a MIDI keyboard you have additional latency for the transfer of digital MIDI notes to the DAW
- VSTi processing time depends how much CPU performance the VSTi requires (complexity, quality of sound emulation) and what sample rate is being used for that, higher sample rate means, the CPU has to process more data in the same time.

Back to ADM

It is for the use case when audio source and destination are directly attached to the recording interface.
And it is to allow you to use the speaker symbol of a DAW track without routing audio through the DAW.
You use comfortably the speaker symbol in the DAW to activate the monitoring for a track.
But the routing of audio happens on the interface avoiding the time consuming path over USB/FW/TB twice and processing time inside the application. Not to forget: routing does not need to be changed in TotalMix FX.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14