• Registered: 2023-02-19
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Topic: How much interface do I need?

I am in the process of upgrading my Studio One 5.5 based home studio (again), can somebody hand me a flashlight, its dark down here in this rabbit hole. Current gear in my signature. I am a one man operation, performing all instruments (guitars both load box/DI and miked cabinets, bass direct through Sans Amp, edrums with Addictive/Easy/Slate trigger, digital piano with instrument VSTs like Rhapsody and Addictive Keys, vocals, VST backing vocals. I track with some hardware , like WA73/WA2A vocal compression, have a metric S ton of plugins. Use a lot of Melodyne (not much of a singer). I never record/track with more than 2 mics or DI inputs (yet). Looking at more computer (12/13th gen Intel) and more interface. Phew, Ok on to my goals:

My Audients (mostly ID14) have been OK, But I suffer through two issues. One is the occasional Audient lock up/DOA at boot up. The other is a common problem, as I add tracks during the initial recording I start running into artifacts at the usual 64 buffer size. I have learned to manage this by cleaning out or disabling unused tracks and adding no processing in the box until mixing but what a PITA if I need to add any recording later in the process with manageable latency. So I would like a more reliable and stable interface, in USB and real world low latency so I can concentrate on making music and not have to stop as I load up a song when the artifacts arrive before I am finished. Oh, and I would like to try some hardware mixing.

So based on the love all over Gearspace, I have been looking at the usual RME suspects like the UFX, UCX and Babyface. I do like the option of rackmount with the UFX and UCX but thats not mandatory. If I can save $1500 and get world class trouble free interface performance Ill deal with a box on my desk.

How much RME do I need? Thanks,

George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 P64, H310M S2P/i7 9700K/32G ram/Cruc 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue, Audient ID14

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-02-19 21:45:11)

  • ramses
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Re: How much interface do I need?

Hi GeorgeLG, welcome to the RME user forum.

What is your maximum budget? What is the minimum type and number of analog and digital I/O ports you need? Keep in mind that it is usually better to have enough ports that you don't have to keep plugging your equipment.

Based on gut instinct, the UFX II would be the best choice. Thereafter, the UCX II.

I would go with the UFX II because you have enough analog connections there. You can connect 2 mics for amp pickup and still have 1 mic for vocals and an input as an instrument input.

The instrument inputs of the UFX II have a higher gain range compared to the UCX II.

If you want to expand this solution in the future, you have two ADAT connectors, then double speed is no problem when connecting an external 8-port mic preamp or AD/DA converter.

You can use this Excel spreadsheet I put together to compare the different interfaces:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … 9-19-xlsx/

Having enough ports is a good thing, I can tell you from my experience.
Playing guitar and recording is my hobby. Meanwhile, I play through a stereo setup (two Marshall combos) and got two external FX and many other things and functionalities.
My setup is special, if I find time, I will write another blog article about the actual setup.
In short, this: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -2022-jpg/
This setup/rack is also intended for mobile recording tasks, therefore some add-on capacity.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • mkok
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Re: How much interface do I need?

Whatever you get your computer will still run out of power if that is what it is doing now. You may get a little more headroom with RME as the latency is still really good at 128 buffers but there are no interfaces out there that will compensate enough for an underpowered computer.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.
  • Registered: 2023-02-19
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Re: How much interface do I need?

Thank you, added my computer specs to my signature.

George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 P64, H310M S2P/i7 9700K/32G ram/Cruc 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue, Audient ID14
  • mkok
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Re: How much interface do I need?

Well if this computer struggles with the audient it is still likely to struggle with an RME. As I said you may be able to run the buffers a bit higher and keep low latency but it won’t fix the problem fully. The RME interfaces, drivers and TotalMix are brilliant but they can’t work miracles

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.
  • Registered: 2023-02-19
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Re: How much interface do I need?

OK then I will abandon my search for a new interface. Thank you,

George

S1 Pro 5.5.0, W10 P64, H310M S2P/i7 9700K/32G ram/Cruc 500G SSD/Asus GT730/1TB WD Blue, Audient ID14

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-02-19 23:55:19)

  • ramses
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Re: How much interface do I need?

The 8-core CPU of his computer is not bad at all, much faster than my somewhat older Xenon CPU and with higher single thread performance:
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cp … mp;id=3335
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cp … mp;id=2838
And look how even my older system weaker CPU performs.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … cks-de-en/

I also don't read anything specific from his description that suggests his system performance would be poor. There was trouble with the Audient interface. And an ASIO buffersize of 64 might be a little for certain projects.
Better to use 128 or 256 and then it is better to have RME with excellent drivers so that the RTL doesn't become too big.
Maybe one or the other can be optimized in the system settings. Concrete DPC latencies have not been discussed yet.
When playing /working with VSTi there is also the possibility to freeze tracks after recording to keep system load lower.

Furthermore, ASIO buffersize between two devices cannot be compared 1:1. It depends on how efficiently the drivers are written.
An ASIO buffersize of 128 samples means for an RME interface an RTL (round trip latency over USB, incl. A/D and D/A) a value in the range of 7.4ms.
With other vendors of recording interfaces, it can be twice the value.
Here you should better talk about concrete values, as they are also reported by the ASIO driver (although they are not stored so accurately in the driver of every manufacturer, as with RME). Then you can also measure it differently with a tool.

I would simply try it out, something like that can be predicted simply bad.
If this doesn't perform, then he should check his system setup (BIOS, Windows) and DPC latencies.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • mkok
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Re: How much interface do I need?

He has already quoted a huge amount of plugins used. Yes it’s a decent computer but mine has more power and I can push it to its limits with just a few cpu hungry plugins and vsti. I wouldn’t want to make a promise that an RME interface is the answer to all the problems. In this case I doubt it is. If he can try one out for free then great.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-02-20 07:55:37)

  • ramses
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Re: How much interface do I need?

Huge is relative. We got no detail information about the load situation of the computer. No CPU load in %, no information whether there is a bottleneck in terms of DPC latencies or how high the RTL of the Audient interface is.

In my Cubase stress test project I am using 800+ Cubase VSTs which also pile up to a quite severe load.

From what I read, he seems to use only a few VSTi which might require a little bit more CPU power, but these tracks you can freeze in most DAWs, so that the Wave file is precalculated.

He talked not only about audio drops at 64 samples ASIO buffersize, but also about occasional Audient lock up/DOA at boot up. So, there seems to be issues with the Audient anyway. From my experience, an RME interface gives many advantages over a €200-300 consumer interface anyway.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • mkok
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Re: How much interface do I need?

I agree and there are lots of good reasons to buy an RME interface which is the very reason I got one. It’s the best interface and control software I have ever bought and the support is the best.

So before doing anything I would suggest going through all the windows tweaks for performance and check with latencyMon for bottlenecks as you say ramses.

I just didn’t want him thinking getting another interface would solve all his problems as it may not. It could solve a few though and will certainly be a upward step.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-02-20 12:30:15)

  • ramses
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Re: How much interface do I need?

I didn't want to chase the customer through troubleshooting steps as it sounded as if
- the Audient is broken and
- he took already the decision to change to RME

>[...]So based on the love all over Gearspace,
> I have been looking at the usual RME suspects like the UFX, UCX and Babyface[...]

After your statements, the customer appears to be confused thinking
- his Audient is ok
- an RME interface wouldn't bring anything

Would make sense to collect some more facts:
- how many tracks in the project, how many VST, how many VSTi
- any VSTi frozen?
- average / peak CPU load at what combination of sample rate and ASIO buffersize
- if Cubase: what is the ASIO load

At IDLE system, what is the min/avg/max DPC Latency when measuring with LatencyMon for approx 5 min.
Are there any bad drivers blocking the CPU.

BIOS check, is energy saving disabled in the BIOS (C/P/T-States, etc ...)
Windows check, is the energy profile high performance or ultimate performance in use.

If RME interface is there: keep driver settings window open and check whether you see any USB transport errors.

There are already a lot of troubleshooting threads on the forum regarding what to check on a PC, see:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 04#p186404

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • mkok
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Re: How much interface do I need?

I still think going out and getting a new interface could be very disappointing especially if he was expecting it to fix all his troubles. I’ve seen people do this and still have the same problems. Throwing money at something is not the best option in my opinion. Finding the route of the problem is. Then if you still want to throw money at it do so.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

13 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-02-21 00:18:21)

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Re: How much interface do I need?

He needs to do something now to come further and with an RME product, he has the best basis.
If it doesn't work … Well, he will surely have "money back" options.
I would keep the RME in such a case and fix or replace the computer.
In the end, he will end up with a much better environment, giving him a lot more options and comfort.
Too minimal approaches sometimes do not bring you further, or why did you get a Babyface Pro and no Behringer or other consumer recording interface?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • mkok
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Re: How much interface do I need?

I got the bfp as I wanted a more compact interface on my desk with top quality sound. I researched for about a month before I bought it. I didn’t buy it hoping to fix a problem though. I never buy anything with the thought I could return it.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

15 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-02-21 12:48:21)

  • ramses
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Re: How much interface do I need?

mkok wrote:

I never buy anything with the thought I could return it.

Nobody told this in this way, and it is not the point here.
You said, that maybe it could be the case, that it won't resolve all problems.
Right, therefore I said, either keep it to have a better interface as a base anyway.
But should something unforeseen happen or if he doesn't like it for whatever reason, then it should be possible to return it.

We are living in a complex world and not everything can be solved by paper and technical facts,
some things you need to try out, especially as all computers and DAW project and workflows are different.

Therefore, you need options … And one option should be to be able to return a unit, especially when the price is high.
With T. in Germany you have 31d money back and if you talk to them nicely they might even make the period longer,
if your testing requires a little more time. And other dealers will offer this too if you ask. It's win-win. The device is used anyway, could only be sold as B-Ware, and this increases the chance that the customer keeps the device.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13