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RME User Forum → FireWire & USB series → UCX II low levels in instrument channel with high gain settings
Howdy,
Long time Firecface 800 owner, recent UCX II buyer. When I plug my bass directly into channel 3 the gain levels are very low (-14). My settings in Total Mix are Instrument, +13 dBu and the gain dial at 12. Is there some other setting I'm not seeing here? My FF800 had a knob for inout gain and generally setting that about 1 or 2 gets a nice full signal.
Thanks
You have also +19dBu, try this in Totalmix input channel.
Sure the volume poti of the Bass is fully open ?
Gain (3-8). Additionally to the reference level setting, Line inputs 3 to 8 have an adjustable gain option from 0 dB to +12 dB.
Level. Sets the reference level individually for the Line inputs. The avail- able settings are +13 dBu and +19 dBu.
Yes but +19 dBu makes the input level lower not higher. Yes volume bot on bass is fully open. Have tried with several basses, same results.
Yes, as I posted gain on input 3 is set to +12. Basically, everything is maxed but input gain is still too low
An XLR to TS cable would let you connect the bass to the XLR mic input.
Otherwise I would be happy with -14, it should be fine for production.
Yes, of course I could and even use an external DI if I wanted to. However, I'm not looking for a workaround.
Portability is important for me and I'd like to use the instrument inputs as they are designed. There should be far more gain available then I'm seeing here so trying understand why it's not working as expected. My reference point is my FF800 which has a similar instrument level input but with tons of gain available. I can easily overdrive it past 1:00 on the input gain control. I have multiple instrument with different output levels and want to adjust them accordingly.
And for my purposes, I'm not happy with -14 or I wouldn't have posted here.
Same question with my electric guitar
Gain range (via pot): 52 dB, the Instrument-Input of the Fireface 800 has a pretty powerful gain !
Hello!
@Britbonic and @fa151515
You could use the make-up Gain from the Compressor!
Page 62 from the UCX II Manual:
Gain. Gain stage to compensate a loss in level caused by
the Compressor. Adjustable from -30 to +30 dB. With inac-
tive Compressor (Threshold 0 dB, Ratio 1:1) this function
can also be used as universal digital gain stage.
@metalheadkeys - yeah I suppose I could try that but I'm really trying to understand why the instrument input isn't working as I expect it would. Is there another setting somewhere I may have missed? Is there something about my setup that's not right?
Also, I'm not 100% clear on how the 2 input gain level settings work. There's a +19dBu and a +13dBu. I would expect the +19 to have more gain than the +13 but that's not the case on my unit.
Yes, the FF800 had a lot of gain. I don't need that much but more than I'm currently getting.
Also, I'm not 100% clear on how the 2 input gain level settings work. There's a +19dBu and a +13dBu. I would expect the +19 to have more gain than the +13 but that's not the case on my unit.
In my Babyface Totalmix input channel 3 I have settings +4dBu or -10dBV
-10dBV makes it louder !
These input gain settings are not setting the gain itself, they tell the unit what level from the instrument is to expect at the input.
@metalheadkeys - yeah I suppose I could try that but I'm really trying to understand why the instrument input isn't working as I expect it would. Is there another setting somewhere I may have missed? Is there something about my setup that's not right?
Hi, Britbonic!
Do you have "AutoSet" turned on, maybe? If you do, just de-activate it!
Another reason could be that your bass' pickups are low output ones!
Also, did you try with very heavy picking on the low E string? What level are you getting this way?
Also, I'm not 100% clear on how the 2 input gain level settings work. There's a +19dBu and a +13dBu. I would expect the +19 to have more gain than the +13 but that's not the case on my unit.
This is the reference level for 0dBFS, i.e the maximum voltage level before the converter clips!
So, roughly: the lower(+13dBu), the louder but easier to distort whereas the higher(+19dBu), the softer but with more headroom!
You should experiment with both and choose what suits you the most.
Thanks for the feedback. We decided to up the available gain from 9 dB (BF Pro) and 12 dB (UCX II) to 24 dB. This requires new firmware, and an update of all TM FX (Win, Mac, iOS, remote...). I will announce here when this change is available. Might take some time...
In fact both BF Pro and UCX II are about 9 dB less sensitive on the instrument input than the old UCX. This change should bring enough gain for all applications.
Thanks for the response Matthias! I was hoping you’d eventually jump in.
I’m still in learning mode for the UCX II (soooo much there!) and thought maybe I’d missed something in the setup or manual but now it makes sense. My reference is my trusty FF800 which has lot’s of available gain. And this is exactly why I’ll continue to buy RME interfaces. Fireface, FW800, UCX II - best support in the industry and just keeps getting better. Looking forward to the update!
That would be useful. I have recorded guitar and bass a few times and the levels have been a bit short of what I would have liked them to be although the sound has been fine (Babyface Pro fs)
Thanks for clarification
Ready for a second UCX II or a Babyface for my IPAD
Hi!
(I put that message also on "My New UCXII" topic, but don't now if that was the best place, i don't wanna open a new topic, so I would try to ask that here, if you think that there is a better place tell me please, and I will remove that message.
I am looking for UCX II, soon I will get mine, and I will buy a microphone just to start recording by myself my guitar stuff. I was thinking on a Royer 121, but I read over someplaces that they need so much gain, because they are low output microphones. Probably from a guitar amp there will not be that problem, but for a lower source, maybe it need 60/70dB of gain, the UCX II Mic Input has 75 dB, but maybe is not that clear Gain.
Just asking for some advice, maybe somebody has made some tests, own the microphones or something. Any help would be super appreciated!
Hope everything is going well,
Best Regards!
I believe the Royer 121 is around 300 Ohms, and with 75 dB of gain I would have expected it to be just fine.
Many mics with much lower impedance's work fine with the RME preamps.
Good mics are a long term investment.
Coles 4038 are good too.
Thanks for the answer CrispyChips!
I send an email also to RME and they told me that "The entire gain range of the preamps is "clean"" so that is also incredible too.
Yes the Coles sound amazing, the few times I heard them I liked more with acoustic sources or Room recording, for electric guitar not much, I also was thinking on the R122 from Royer, active Ribbon, instead of 121, but way much expensive, have to think about it, because my budget only allows me to only go for one by now. The mic list never ends...
For low budget, there is a tip : Thomann has extremly cheap ribbon mics.
They have a very bad reputation because they are bad assembled.
The trick is, you have to open it and adjust everything in optimized positions, especially the ribbon itself.
Not too tight and not wibbely wobbely, symmetric with same gap on both side.
After all you can get a good sounding ribbon mic for cheap.
The Royers are excellent, had 122er, fantastic tool.
Check your targets.
Do you want to reach being the owner of a expensive equipment or do you want to get fine music recordings.
Yeah I also checked those thomann mics, It would be my first ribbon mic, I have play with some of them, I know them, but owning one, it would be my first, and start adjusting the ribbon... don't know if I am going to do it well.
Of course what I wanna is to get fine music recordings, and with the time I realized that to getting some quality sound, or certain sounds, SOMETIMES some quality equipment is necessary, if not, you will not arrive to that certain tipe of sounds that in my case, I have been listening for years. Of course that a person that controls the mixing thing as a master and knowing the equipment will get and amazing results with any mic or equipment. But in my case, I am not a master on mixing and I am so far from it, I have a good place to record, and thats why I think that a good mic, like Royers or so, helps in the process of getting pretty good sound just putting it on the amp. Thats why I was thinking on the 121 or 122, need to decided, I love how they sounds, and with the clear RME preamps, the combination will be amazing.
Anyway, thanks for that Thomann advice, and of course if I meet someone skilled about optimizing those mics, I will try one!!!!
Do you know this :
https://www.thomannmusic.ch/thomann_fetamp.htm
Thats amazing! I didnt know about it! I saw the dBooster of Royer on their website, but didn't research about more options, but that looks amazing! Do you have one?
Thanks for sending it to me! That will solve a lot! In terms of money and gain with the MIC channel!
<3
I have used mics with half the output of the Royer mentioned earlier.
Because of that, experimented with the higher quality, more expensive output boosters, utilising a variety of low output mics.
Having done so, I positively determined that although they raised the mics output, they also simultaneously raised its noise level proportionately. Perhaps, whether this is noticeable might depend upon the quality of the monitoring used, but on mine, it was clear, to my ears.
The boosters did not give a bad sound at all if you believe louder is always better, but the firm conclusion I arrived at, utilising several types of RME preamps of greater and lesser gain; was that in all cases they delivered sufficient clean gain to use all the various mics successfully, without requiring any additional booster.
My impression of using the lower outputs mics with the RME preamps alone, was that this straight signal path, gave the most superior quality of sound, amongst the different variations, I tested.
Therefore, I would encourage you to select and purchase the mic first and take time trying it out. You may discover you are surprised and delighted at the quality your RME preamps provide.
Other forum members have helpfully given you genuinely useful solutions, it’s good to know about, and should you feel you need them, such options will remain available.
All I’m suggesting is that you try the mics first with the RME preamps, to determine matters for yourself.
Royer, Coles, Beyer, Rode, etc. make cheaper mid-priced ribbon mics. If budget is an issue.
All kinds of boosters, Cloud Lifters and so on make only sense (with RME) when you are on stage with long cable runs on low output devices. They amplify at the source and thus reduce hum and and other interferences that are added on the way to the RME, by the amount they preamplify. With proper cables and in typical situations there is no win as there is no cable-induced noise. So as CrispyChips says, in 99% of the cases it is (with RME) wasted money.
Thanks for the feedback. We decided to up the available gain from 9 dB (BF Pro) and 12 dB (UCX II) to 24 dB. This requires new firmware, and an update of all TM FX (Win, Mac, iOS, remote...). I will announce here when this change is available. Might take some time...
In fact both BF Pro and UCX II are about 9 dB less sensitive on the instrument input than the old UCX. This change should bring enough gain for all applications.
Thanks for this. I too am slightly disappointed in the gain similar to the original poster. I just got my UCXII a few days ago and I’m very slowly starting to integrate my gear but the first thing I did was plug guitars into input 3 and was sad. I love everything else about the unit including impeccable build quality but it seems this one “feature” is really missing the mark. What was the thought process in spec’ing “less sensitive” on the instrument inputs to begin with?
Any idea on when “some time” might be? It’s not a huge deal as I use guitar processors mainly but I’d still like the ability to quickly plug in an instrument on the fly without going through one of my processors and/or swapping cables.
Thanks…
Hello,
any update ?
Hi. Is there an estimated date of when the mentioned update will be released? I have the same 'low gain' problem when plugging my Fender Telecaster into my Fireface UCX II. Thanks
Same issue here. Switched to an ucx ii from ufx. The instrument inputs are unusable with passive pickups. Gain is too low. Thats a bummer! Desperately need that fw update otherwise will have to invest again on a DI box
Any news ?
Thanks
Is this still the case? Did the update ever come out? waiting for my ucxii to arrive on monday and hoping this still isn't an issue.
The update is expected soon.
I just saw this thread. I was going to get a device mainly for recording electric guitar and bass. All instruments with passive pickups. My favorite ones for the Stratocaster 5.8 kom for ultra-transparency, very often I use gain to "warm" it before plugin depend on amp /emulation i use. it turns out that this card I really wanted to buy is not suitable for my tasks with such low gain
Good that you know all this without having it ever tested and tried!
Good that you know all this without having it ever tested and tried!
of course, i can`t know this exactly. but i need to make an order and wait some time maybe more than month and most likely return it when i will try, if some people who use low output pickups have issues with similar usecases. So maby will wait for an update. There was no intention to reproach you for anything
Low output pickup... similar use case...
I have doubts that you can compare this.
There are a few parameter which determine the final signal output volume, e.g.
- adjustment of the string action, how high the movement / amplitude of the strings can be at all
- string gauge
- how high the pickup is set
- Thickness of the pick
- How dynamic you hit the strings with fingers or plek
- exact output power of the pickup "low output pickup" is a little bit too general / vague
- Thickness of the neck
- Quality of the wood
How would you like to be able to determine / correlate all this without having tried it out in practice only by remote diagnosis from people with different gear and different setup of the guitar.
These are all obvious points, of course they have a big impact, not first year with guitar.
I take it as a starting point that people who take a device from rme already have some experience in recording and if they say that it is not enough and the official representative writes about the decision to make an upgrade, it is most likely that it is not enough, isn't it ?)
On the other hand I have more confidence in the experience of rme engineers and that they simply could not ignore the use of vintage pickups. Especially considering that the line outputs have been adapted to vintage equipment (from what it says on the official product page). And i thought that it was a special idea to regulate the input level in this way, for the convenience of the user, despite the fact that many devices have a significant range of gain on the instrumental inputs.
I just didn't see in the representative's response in this thread an explanation of the logic that perhaps the company put into such input level control, which the users of this thread didn't notice.
Maybe the low input level is more suitable for some quality emulation of guitar amplifiers. But this was not mentioned, said about the solution of the update, so apparently engineers came to the conclusion that it makes sense.
people say that at maximum gain on the instrumental input they get values of -12 or so. That's quite a big headroom even if you take as a starting point playing with rather weak dynamics on singles with thin strings and not much pickup height. In particular i often see the alnico 5 pickups lowered to pickguard, so it's a normal usecase for strats. The audiointerfaces I had in use at about 50 percent gain could already cause clipping, so it never was more than 55 for me.
It's always best to take one, take it to studio and check it out. Not everyone has this process easily and quickly, unfortunately.
As I wrote above, it's possible that it might work for me in the end, although I have my doubts, and it's even possible that I will risk ordering ( I don't know if I'll be able to get it back.) but in my real life I'm used to rereading and checking everything before buying.
Do you personally use ucx 2 or babyface to share your usage scenario or say that for vintage style pickups you are good enough with it?
I didn't mean to belittle or offend you in any way, I was just wondering how you're going to figure this all out remotely. MC is quite right, you should just try it.
I don't have a UCX II. Unfortunately, the circuit doesn't seem to be built exactly like the UFX II either. At least as far as the adjustment range of the gain from the Instr input is concerned. So, a description of my setup will probably not help you much. But if I understand you correctly, you wanted to know (I have also kind of "low volume" pickups (Gibson 59 Classic)).
So, let's go.
I can only record quietly at home and use a few tricks to get a nice creamy lead sound despite low volume.
Current setup: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -2022-jpg/
I plug the guitars directly into the instrument input of the UFX+. The gain can be adjusted from 8 - 50dB. For humbucker guitars I use 20dB gain (Inst 9), for single coil guitars 22dB gain (Inst 10).
All humbucker guitars have the Gibson 59 Classic installed. On the Tele Texas Special. The pickups are adjusted from the string spacing so that the strings can vibrate well. The adjustable pole pieces on the Humbuckers are set so that the strings are not different loudness.
I record the direct guitar signal to be able to use a VSTi or reamp afterwards if necessary. Usually, the signal is sent to an overdrive / tube amp and are miked with two Mics (SM57 and Tube Mic).
I often use the UFX+ as a tape deck via DURec. The recorded signal from an L5-CES at the Instr input sounds pretty decent even as it is.
In this setup, the UFX+ acts, among other things, as a parallel effect loop for the two Marshall combos (stereo setup). I send the preamp signal directly back to Effect Return. The times for the A/D and D/A conversion are pleasantly low. This gives me a lot of the dynamics of the preamp signal.
The UFX+ also connects the two Lexicon PCM 81 and PCM 91 as external FX. I can then mix them in 100% wet in the direction of the effect return (of both amps). By appropriate routing, I can use the PCMs either for guitar or DAW as FX.
Via TM FX Snapshots and the ARC USB, I can choose between the two Lexicon FX as well as between 4 different FX levels to bring either the guitar or the FX sound more to the fore.
The UFX+ also sends the guitar signal from the instrument input to a Rockboard rack tuner. With the Roland FC-300 I can tap in the tap tempo and send it to both FX via MIDI. With the two FC-300 pedals I can also control the "adjust" parameter of the Lexicon FX via foot pedal and other parameters of my choice (decay, reverb intensity, etc.).
The UFX+ Instr inputs work extremely well. If that wouldn't work, I would bring the output of the guitars to line level.
Sound examples:
1. Guitar Overdub (using Les Paul, guitar on right channel) - backing track and amp recorded with DURec, later mixed in Cubase
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … orrow-mp3/
2. Pure Instr input (using L5-CES)
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … -320b-mp3/
To be fair if I was reading about a product and there was a lot of complaints about lack of gain then I wouldn’t be inclined to buy until the problem was fixed. I certainly wouldn’t buy a product with the promise of a future fix as these can be years and I certainly wouldn’t buy to try it out.
Come on be fair with the answers.
I didn't mean to belittle or offend you in any way, I was just wondering how you're going to figure this all out remotely. MC is quite right, you should just try it.
Thank you much for so detailed response with sound examples. Bought UCX 2 today. Went to another city for that. Trying/testing for now. Well i had no bootloader error from start , not bad for first meeting. Can tell nothing about gain for now, this gain system works some other way than my previous devices. Need to try it more with different instruments
Thanks for the feedback. We decided to up the available gain from 9 dB (BF Pro) and 12 dB (UCX II) to 24 dB. This requires new firmware, and an update of all TM FX (Win, Mac, iOS, remote...). I will announce here when this change is available. Might take some time...
In fact both BF Pro and UCX II are about 9 dB less sensitive on the instrument input than the old UCX. This change should bring enough gain for all applications.
Hello. I saw an gain update for UCX II. How about Babyface Pro fs gain update ?
MC wrote:Thanks for the feedback. We decided to up the available gain from 9 dB (BF Pro) and 12 dB (UCX II) to 24 dB. This requires new firmware, and an update of all TM FX (Win, Mac, iOS, remote...). I will announce here when this change is available. Might take some time...
In fact both BF Pro and UCX II are about 9 dB less sensitive on the instrument input than the old UCX. This change should bring enough gain for all applications.
Hello. I saw an gain update for UCX II. How about Babyface Pro fs gain update ?
I too am very curious about this.
Me too. I thought these were coming at the same time
It turned out that increasing the gain knob function on the BF Pro is extremely complicated. Therefore we are currently going a different route, adding another ref level to the dropdown menu of channel 3/4 that adds 9 dB of gain (-19 dBV), so effectively you have 2 x 9 dB in adjustable gain. That should do it. Stay tuned, won't be too long anymore.
Thanks for the update Matthias
Sounds great, thanks Mattias!
Some update ?
It’s been done for a while now on the bfp. If you read regularly you would see that. Get the new firmware and beta drivers
still beta firmware & driver ?
still beta firmware & driver ?
No, only TMFX is in Beta.
Latest for me is
Firmware V39 & Driver 3.28. - Totalmix 1.78
RME User Forum → FireWire & USB series → UCX II low levels in instrument channel with high gain settings
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