1 (edited by Keith_W 2023-04-03 03:24:58)

Topic: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

Hello everyone, recently I was getting rather strange looking audio sweeps when I was measuring my loudspeakers. I used my Earthworks M30 microphone on my Fireface UC, and compared the output between Mic input 1 and 2. The microphone was mounted on a tripod, 10cm from the tweeter, and was not moved between these two sweeps. The Totalmix settings for Mic 1 and 2 are the same, except for microphone gain. The reason I measured the tweeter only is because measurement of the midrange driver and woofer look OK to me.

Mic input 1:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8ACkkSbnKLzAEoel1mHCmI7mMqNeqrfnJGwun1qFFOEDvWmPBgyYuSuh2xzOSSuFjbY51WdlObt4xeuc8D4sT7qWbCHv_lpU_YDwTB-447AbCNq-cS3AzlrjpaGnzinUJpn67mOeX8dQ3fqPsRj_0enoA=w1708-h961-s-no?authuser=0

Mic input 2:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8C1YX3J_Nvc1KifebzH5cw2EAMnpkGHzD4FI3ORNw9b-wbxZ17QyCkzfPFcIDmx21Q_yNvxx72WYajmIO_MzxpxbYiowHbcf9B3Z9JtxTLTrFaXGw19xVrwZNa1yXT30XRGTDYhXJt5wGDm580kZJeM8Q=w1708-h961-s-no?authuser=0

Mic input 1 vs. 2 with 1/48 smoothing:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8BWmd_cAtCCc72KBMvO5w79ikUVDc4NAtRgZs3y2If3xCPoAGPgOiAxB4pO3p_UmAqQyPMJZysmqKn25dKYVBaRDoXN1GYZNoiIoNLX0sr9W6ByeMo2zelz6XnIp-LQL8MADORODjKA_lLABos8GFAcFg=w1708-h961-s-no?authuser=0

Some comments:

- Note the level difference between the 2 inputs. With input 1, I had to apply full microphone gain (65.0), with input 2 I applied a gain of 40. Even with maximum gain on input 1, the recording level is still very low.
- Input 1 has a lot more extraneous noise than input 2.
- With 1/48 smoothing, the measured curves look different.

(Continued)

2 (edited by Keith_W 2023-04-03 03:47:24)

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

I then performed some measurements comparing the electric output from Mic 1 and Mic 2. I connected the analog output from 5/6 to mic inputs 1 and 2 via a loopback cable. Note that I staggered the gain between both outputs so that it is easier to see the graph:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8BqQg7o-ZICgxTvLNk0RU-JyqSYKjEsUBLGTr52Cf5rI1NGtqY5NWTw13vP8PP8NC9EAXpvWYxN1vgdrtEq6hwGOUcxSOihOJr_wsNuFpy9wkS9Y5wzxy720AlguCnzAfJ8JwwLiGxxsI37nWAn7KNPGA=w1247-h864-s-no?authuser=0

As you can see, both mic 1 and mic 2 look exactly the same!

So here is a summary of the results of my testing:

1. I have confirmed that the electric input between Mic 1 and Mic 2 are the same.
2. However, the measurements taken with a mic are different. One is low level, noisy, and the curves look different.
3. The mixer settings between the two mic inputs are exactly the same.

So why is the microphone measurement different between mic inputs 1 and 2? By process of exclusion, I have determined:

1. The RME Fireface UC is not at fault. Loopback measurements of mic inputs 1 and 2 are exactly the same.
2. The mic cable is not at fault. If it was, then the microphone measurements from the Mic 1 and Mic 2 input would look the same.
3. The microphone itself is not at fault. I spent money buying a new microphone just to prove that. And furthermore, the mic shouldn't behave differently when plugged into different outputs.
4. Therefore, the only variable is different Totalmix settings between Mic 1 and 2. But I copied and pasted settings from Mic 1 to Mic 2. There might be a hidden Totalmix setting I am not aware of.

Please check my logic and let me know if there is something I haven't thought of. I strongly suspect different software settings between the two inputs, but I don't know how to confirm that.

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

What's the input level showing for both inputs with nothing connected and gain at 0 and 65?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

Guten Tag, Herr Daniel. Thank you for responding to my query.

Input gain level for Mic 1 and 2 with nothing connected and gain at 0:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8CQa0gS5u66dmlyrAH0A4Ld_YcnCabPHTIxrNMysSng2Awy_aDRpM027YImiFYpw6c_jdD06hB3hMMOhoVpxkVN9woEH_Sp115UGxrmefZkvdp6-_awXHvPOoVqjNXE9ql_3bYCDx4fyEbCpEC2mt_SGQ=w248-h264-s-no?authuser=0

Input gain level for Mic 1 and 2 with nothing connected and gain at 65:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8CmKlFsW_0CSjpnQ-drl8X31aAWyJf0aIeeNAtE9iYuOcEUNQca1VTEhS0-gmoyi0W-XDO_9b_ER0ZueO4ttP2AGYd33blrThNMCnG_Rj1f6ONe7uCGsctL88r_jISvBhHLWPLlCysaAUPv7H08_f8tsA=w251-h266-s-no?authuser=0

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

A friend suggested that 48V Phantom power may not be working. This makes sense because I have to turn the gain all the way up and the Behringer still can't record properly. Do you know which pins to insert the probes into to check if I have 48V coming out the mic inputs?

If there is a hardware problem with the Fireface UC, would I be able to send the unit in for repair, or do I have to buy a new interface. I would rather not, because it is quite expensive. It looks as if you have retired the Fireface UC. Is the Fireface UCX II the replacement?

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

The inputs as such look quite normal. Have you got a dynamic microphone to test this with?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

7 (edited by Keith_W 2023-04-05 12:54:27)

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

I haven't, because I do not own a dynamic microphone. I own 3 condenser microphones. I bought a third one to confirm that the other two were working properly! I do suspect that the Fireface hardware is at fault, given that I have repeated the measurement with a Focusrite and found that with that interface, I have sufficient gain. However, I much prefer RME.

I will test whether my mic is getting 48V Phantom Power. Can you please confirm whether this is the correct pin-out:

https://content.instructables.com/FZ5/K5TP/J3AFDUJ5/FZ5K5TPJ3AFDUJ5.png?auto=webp&fit=bounds&frame=1

Also, I would like to know whether the Fireface UC can be repaired in the event that I find that the 48V output is faulty. Given that it is out of warranty and has given me many years of faithful service, I would be happy to pay for the repair and shipping cost, provided it is reasonable.

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

Can you feed the same signal to the XLR input, using your Focusrite as a phantom power supply only, passing the signal through without gain? Just for a test? Potentially higher input noise levels aren't relevant here.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

I am sorry, it is not clear to me what you are asking me to do. Is this correct:

Microphone ---> (+48V phantom power) ---> Focusrite mic input
Focusrite XLR output ---> RME Fireface UC microphone input (with no 48V phantom power)

In other words, you are asking me to try using the Focusrite as a microphone preamp only?

I have to clarify that I am not an audio professional, I am an audio enthusiast. Please forgive me if I am a little slow to understand.

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

Keith_W wrote:

I will test whether my mic is getting 48V Phantom Power. Can you please confirm whether this is the correct pin-out:

Yes, measure negative on 1 and you should read +48v on both 2 and 3.

Babyface Pro FS, MSI GS66, Studio One

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

No, I meant use it as phantom power supply only. Run the signal through without applying gain, and do so as required on the UC. If that works well, the phantom power supply on the UC seems dodgy.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

12 (edited by Keith_W 2023-04-06 16:08:34)

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

I have done more experiments and I will summarize again what the issue is, and what diagnostic steps I have taken. 

The problem: I use an Earthworks M30 and RME Fireface UC. In the past, I have had no problem and it worked perfectly. Recently I noticed I have to turn the gain all the way up when taking a sine wave sweep, and I am unable to get an accurate reading below 80Hz and above 3kHz.

I own 3 microphones - an Earthworks M30, and two Behringer ECM8000's. I also own 3 interfaces - the RME, and a Focusrite 2i2 and a Presonus Audiobox USB. I need the 8 channel capability of the RME, and my only use for the other interfaces is for diagnostic purposes.

Experiments

Microphones. I have excluded the mics as the problem. All 3 of my mics work fine with the other two interfaces, although I am only able to sweep 2 channels at a time with those. If I use the RME, both the Behringers fail to register the sweep even with the gain set to maximum. If I use the Earthworks, I can get a reading but I have to increase the gain. I posted the faulty sweep with the Earthworks mic above.

Cables. I have excluded the cable as the problem. A check with a multimeter shows they are passing current correctly.

Interface: Through process of exclusion, the only remaining possibilities are a software issue, or a hardware problem with the Fireface UC.

The first thing I did was check the settings in Totalmix. Everything looked fine.

I ran a loopback measurement (DAC output --> mic input) with a cable. The graph is posted above. It looked fine.

I checked if it was outputting 48V Phantom Power with a multimeter. It registered 50.1V, so I have confirmed that the mic is getting phantom power.

I can not think of anything else to test. I am convinced it is either a hardware issue with the Fireface UC or a software issue, yet the limited number of tests I can do on the hardware reveals no faults, and looking at Totalmix it looks OK. Buying a replacement for the Fireface UC is out of the question at the moment because it is too expensive.

Please advise me on anything I have missed, or any additional diagnostic steps you might suggest.

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

Can you borrow a dynamic mic?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

14 (edited by Keith_W 2023-04-06 20:03:24)

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

I can try to borrow a dynamic mic*, however I do not follow the reasoning. How will a dynamic mic demonstrate the problem over my condenser mic, apart from removing the requirement for phantom power? Can you please explain?

* I just checked the price of dynamic mics and they are quite cheap, so I could buy one. Do you think a Behringer SL84C is good enough for this purpose?

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

Keith_W wrote:

I can try to borrow a dynamic mic, however I do not follow the reasoning. How will a dynamic mic demonstrate the problem over my condenser mic? Can you please explain?

It will help pinpoint the problem, if a dynamic mic works the same on both channels the preamps are fine.

Babyface Pro FS, MSI GS66, Studio One

16 (edited by Keith_W 2023-04-06 20:08:01)

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

ebmmbongo wrote:

It will help pinpoint the problem, if a dynamic mic works the same on both channels the preamps are fine.

I see. I have already run a loopback cable from DAC output to mic input (graph posted above). Would this show that the preamps are working, or am I misunderstanding the whole situation?

Sorry for all these silly questions, these things are quite foreign to me. Thank you all for your patience.

17

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

A mic behaves a bit different than an active electronic output which works at higher levels as well. A cheap dynamic mic can also be used with +48V switched on. That way nothing should change, but if phantom power is misbehaving it could show up as additional noise.

What I miss is a simple listening test with those mics connected. That might already reveal the noise measured in a more understandable form...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

I see. I am in the process of trying to borrow a dynamic mic. If I can't get one, I will have to wait until the easter long weekend is over before the shops reopen and I can buy one.

I will try a listening test with those condenser mics which I own and see if I can hear a difference.

Re: [Solved] Fireface UC mic input not working?

Hello gents. I finally solved the problem. It was a faulty microphone cable.

I am too cheap to buy a long microphone cable, so I made one up by joining together a few spare XLR's I have in storage. One of them is intermittently faulty and not making a proper connection. This caused one of the pins to drop out, which caused the very low gain.

What made me suspect the cable again was when I borrowed a friend's Motu to see if I could do some measurements. It immediately developed the same problem as my RME. I knew it's not the mic (since I bought a new one), so it had to be the cable. I tested the cable again, and this time I found the problem. It was very annoying to separate the cable and test each one, until I found the problem cable. Even this cable tested OK, it was only with repeated testing that I found the pin dropping out. I opened it to inspect it, it turns out that pins 1 and 3 were touching intermittently, especially when the cable was subjected to a twisting action.

Once again I thank you all for your time. I am glad to close this chapter because it has been incredibly frustrating for me.