1 Topic by danielG (edited by danielG 2023-04-25 23:31:45)

  • Registered: 2023-02-22
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Topic: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Hi! Hopefully someone can help.

I've recently changed from Tidal to Qobuz on Windows 11, using the RME ADI 2 DAC (AK4493 chip). When I was using Tidal, I kept a fixed sample rate of 96kHz in the ADI 2 DAC. With Tidal, it was not possible to automatically adjust to changing track resolutions, so keeping the sample rate at 96kHz was a good compromise.

Now I am using Qobuz, and now my ADI 2 DAC automatically adjusts to the track sample rate. I was very happy, until I heard a short stutter at the beginning of certain songs. Then I realized that this stutter occurs when I go from a 44.1 sample rate to any hi-res track. So, when the ADI 2 DAC adjusts to a higher resolution, there is a short but noticeable stutter or cut-out. It doesn't happen if I skip back to play the song again; in this case the song does not cut out because the DAC is already using the right sample rate. It happens exactly the same whether I use Madiface Asio or Wasapi. I maxed out the buffer on either Madiface or the Qobuz app (with wasapi), and nothing happens: same stuttering when changing to higher sample rate.

Is this a normal behaviour for the ADI 2 DAC (or any DAC)? If it is not, what can I do to eliminate it? Or is it Qobuz's fault? Sorry, I am not too knowledgeable about digital formats.  Any help will be appreciated!

Best regards,
Daniel

2 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2023-04-25 23:42:56)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

I had the same with my usual music listening setup:
iPhone, Tidal “Master”, ADI-2 Pro or ADI-2 Pro 2/4 SE.

In this config automatic sample rate switching works, typically 44.1, 88.2 and 96 kHz.

Seems Tidal fixed the glitches, didn’t happen since a longer time now.

KaiS's Website

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Thank you for the quick reply. So you think the problem is on Qobuz's end?

4 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2023-04-25 23:50:57)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

danielG wrote:

Thank you for the quick reply. So you think the problem is on Qobuz's end?

I don’t have Qobuz, all I can tell, it’s not ADI-2’s fault, as here SR switching works with no glitch.

What if you check with the PC’s built in analog audio out?

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

KaiS wrote:
danielG wrote:

Thank you for the quick reply. So you think the problem is on Qobuz's end?

I don’t have Qobuz, all I can tell, it’s not ADI-2’s fault, as here SR switching works with no glitch.

What if you check with the PC’s built in analog audio out?


Great suggestion. I just tried and I couldn't replicate the problem using PC's audio out, but actually I am not sure if Windows is even changing sample rates at all, lol.

More information that I just noticed. When the ADI 2 DAC changes resolution from 44.1 to any hi-res, even the numbers on the ADI screen (those that indicate the sample rate, bottom right corner) change color while the sound stutters. For the duration of the stutter, those numbers turn to red, as if indicating an error.

By the way I am using Wi-Fi, not sure if it changes anything...

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

danielG wrote:

By the way I am using Wi-Fi, not sure if it changes anything...

Can you store a few songs locally (“download” option on Qobuz) and play from there, to exclude that?

KaiS's Website

7 Reply by danielG (edited by danielG 2023-04-26 03:44:34)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

KaiS wrote:
danielG wrote:

By the way I am using Wi-Fi, not sure if it changes anything...

Can you store a few songs locally (“download” option on Qobuz) and play from there, to exclude that?

Another great idea. I can't download (yet) as I am using the trial version. But I moved the ADI 2 DAC and a laptop next to the modem to use ethernet. Unfortunately, it was still the same stutter, the same red sample rate numbers while stuttering.

I don't think there is anything wrong with my unit...right? I just want to find the solution (or at least confirm the cause). I'll wait and see if others can chime in. Thanks again.

8 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2023-04-26 06:21:14)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

danielG wrote:
KaiS wrote:
danielG wrote:

By the way I am using Wi-Fi, not sure if it changes anything...

Can you store a few songs locally (“download” option on Qobuz) and play from there, to exclude that?

Another great idea. I can't download (yet) as I am using the trial version. But I moved the ADI 2 DAC and a laptop next to the modem to use ethernet. Unfortunately, it was still the same stutter, the same red sample rate numbers while stuttering.

I don't think there is anything wrong with my unit...right? I just want to find the solution (or at least confirm the cause). I'll wait and see if others can chime in. Thanks again.

Meanwhile, if you have an iDevice, connect it to ADI-2 pro and check Qobuz there.
For the ones with Lightning Connector you need one version of the Apple CCK adapter - with or without extra load connection, see below.

The USB-C equipped work with a standard USB-C to USB-B cable.

https://www.amazon.de/Cable-Matters®-US … C&th=1

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71wURko6n-L._SX522_.jpg


https://www.apple.com/de/shop/product/M … ra-adapter
https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/4668/as-images.apple.com/is/MD821?wid=1144&hei=1144&fmt=jpeg&qlt=95&.v=0

https://www.apple.com/de/shop/product/M … ra-adapter

https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/4668/as-images.apple.com/is/MK0W2?wid=1144&hei=1144&fmt=jpeg&qlt=90&.v=1479496994382

KaiS's Website

9 Reply by danielG (edited by danielG 2023-04-27 04:26:04)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Thank you so much for trying to help!!! I had the apple connector.....and sold it sad
Also, I updated the drivers (latest 2023 version), and I confirm that the stutter is more tolerable now. 
But quite frankly, I may just listen to my music in CD quality and avoid frustrations. I don't think my ears hear a significant difference!
I will still try to explore possible solutions, though. 
MC, any thoughts?

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

danielG wrote:

Thank you so much for trying to help!!! I had the apple connector.....and sold it sad
Also, I updated the drivers (latest 2023 version), and I confirm that the stutter is more tolerable now. 
But quite frankly, I may just listen to my music in CD quality and avoid frustrations. I don't think my ears hear a significant difference!
I will still try to explore possible solutions, though. 
MC, any thoughts?

“Unfortunately” there is indeed a little, but audible difference, to more “airy” with true 88.2 or 96 kHz.

This is related to the DAC’s Reconstruction Filter.

Personally I don’t hear any further change with higher sample rates like 192 kHz, e.g. with true analog sources like vinyl plugged to ADI-2/4 Pro SE.

“True” means, the source must be real High Res material, not upsampled CD-quality stuff.
Only, if you go for system-based upsampling, higher is better, as more of possible artifacts from lesser up-samplers are out of the audible range.


For your situation, if you want to go the “fixed sample rate“-way, I suggest to set 192 kHz.
This is the highest SR ADI-2/4 Pro SE works without compromising features.

KaiS's Website

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

KaiS wrote:

[

For your situation, if you want to go the “fixed sample rate“-way, I suggest to set 192 kHz.
This is the highest SR ADI-2/4 Pro SE works without compromising features.

This is interesting. Would the "downsampling" (when playing, let's say, songs at 44.1 khz) affect the sound quality? Or would that be negligible? Thanks for the recommendation!

I would still love to hear an official comment from @MC about this stuttering......

12 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2023-04-27 20:06:19)

  • Registered: 2019-01-07
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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Daniel,

I've been using Qobuz via an RPi with my Vintage ADI-2 DAC for quite some time, and have never encountered stuttering with SR changes.  Quite seamless even in the case of mixed playlists with tracks of assorted SRs.   The RME reliably indicates the SR of the material currently playing, but you'd never hear a glitch of any sort in the change from one SR to another.  In my simple use-case, Qobuz, and RME are quite good partners in my estimation.

Hmmm.  This sounds like a Windows matter.

Good Luck Daniel

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes
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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Curt962 wrote:

Daniel,

I've been using Qobuz via an RPi with my Vintage ADI-2 DAC for quite some time, and have never encountered stuttering with SR changes.  Quite seamless even in the case of mixed playlists with tracks of assorted SRs.   The RME reliably indicates the SR of the material currently playing, but you'd never hear a glitch of any sort in the change from one SR to another.  In my simple use-case, Qobuz, and RME are quite good partners in my estimation.

Hmmm.  This sounds like a Windows matter.

Good Luck Daniel

Hi Curt, thanks for your input. Raspberry Pi (I am assuming that's what's you are referring to), I'll look more into it, I honestly don't know much about it. It may be the solution. And you are right, it may very well be a Windows issue!

14 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2023-04-27 22:02:32)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Daniel,

I didn't enter the discussion as a Cheerleader for the Rpi-4...but I can. wink

This arrangement has worked well for me, and seems rather impervious to the maladies that have affected others via PC direct over a considerable time.

I didn't know anything about the Linux based Pi either...but it's run my material smoothly, AND bit-perfect all this time...on a Pauper's Budget using FREE Player software.   Could be an option for you.  Seriously...I was petrified at the thought of configuring this tiny device.  As it turned out?  It was done in a surprisingly short time over some Coffee before it was actually sending audio to the RME.    I amazed myself!

Digital Radio (DAB) is my true pleasure. While audio quality varies, it is through pure interest in the program,  that I'm able to enjoy the World's playlist!    A tap on a Smartphone button, takes me wherever I choose.   Maybe check the Traffic in Germany, and some fun Pop hits on WDR2...Top 40 in London, or Classical Music in Paris.  It's cool!   I can always recede to my own local material at any time. 

For me, this one ability has added immense value to my audio system as a whole. With my RME processing the data?  I can't lose.   I'm delighted!

Maybe this picture will show you.  An add-on IPS monitor, and I'm living well!
https://i.ibb.co/DWFjT6P/20230427-154043.jpg[/url

Should you wonder, my connection scheme is as follows:

PC wireless to Gigabit Router>Wired Ethernet connection to Pi>USB connection to RME.  Voilá!

Windows audio is nowhere to be found in that.   It's effectively bypassed, and the Pi only goes there for data.

Done!

Best,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

15 Reply by danielG (edited by danielG 2023-04-28 03:33:56)

  • Registered: 2023-02-22
  • Posts: 19

Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Curt962 wrote:

Daniel,

I didn't enter the discussion as a Cheerleader for the Rpi-4...but I can. wink

This arrangement has worked well for me, and seems rather impervious to the maladies that have affected others via PC direct over a considerable time.

I didn't know anything about the Linux based Pi either...but it's run my material smoothly, AND bit-perfect all this time...on a Pauper's Budget using FREE Player software.   Could be an option for you.  Seriously...I was petrified at the thought of configuring this tiny device.  As it turned out?  It was done in a surprisingly short time over some Coffee before it was actually sending audio to the RME.    I amazed myself!

Digital Radio (DAB) is my true pleasure. While audio quality varies, it is through pure interest in the program,  that I'm able to enjoy the World's playlist!    A tap on a Smartphone button, takes me wherever I choose.   Maybe check the Traffic in Germany, and some fun Pop hits on WDR2...Top 40 in London, or Classical Music in Paris.  It's cool!   I can always recede to my own local material at any time. 

For me, this one ability has added immense value to my audio system as a whole. With my RME processing the data?  I can't lose.   I'm delighted!

Maybe this picture will show you.  An add-on IPS monitor, and I'm living well!
https://i.ibb.co/DWFjT6P/20230427-154043.jpg[/url

Should you wonder, my connection scheme is as follows:

PC wireless to Gigabit Router>Wired Ethernet connection to Pi>USB connection to RME.  Voilá!

Windows audio is nowhere to be found in that.   It's effectively bypassed, and the Pi only goes there for data.

Done!

Best,

Curt

Hi Curt, I really appreciate your taking the time to explain this to me! So much to learn in our hobby. I like that it seems to be a clean, straightforward connection. Also, relatively inexpensive. In fact I see that the rpi's come "naked". Interesting, I guess you need to add a case.
Thanks a lot!

16 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2023-04-28 16:04:19)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Daniel,

Here we go again.  So much for me "not Cheerleading"  I was never quiet about my great satisfaction with the RME either.  In this case, the inconspicuously small Pi-4 has delivered the goods.  The Server Computer sits in another room, while the Audio System lives in yet another room.  The Pi dressed in a nice Flirc Aluminum Heatsink Case quietly hides itself behind the IPS display.   In practice, it all looks like Magic.  As if the Audio System was plucking music out of thin air!  (It is!)  All this from a user that is the antithesis of a Computer Geek.   

I toss my suggestion into the Ring simply because streaming devices in general have for about 15yrs reliably kept me insulated from the PC audio aggravations.  The Pi is only here as a more Future-Resistant replacement for my old EOL Squeezebox devices.  Further,  You may note that I'm intentionally avoiding anecdotal chatter about Soundstages, Silky Strings, Honey-Like Vocals, and all the rest.  Meaningless Drivel. What ever is in the source file is what you get, and?  Your RMEs Bit-Test function will confirm that!   

Yes.  I'm quite satisfied, and this could work for you also.  The Return on Investment is quite high you might say.  Teamed with your RME?  You may actually find yourself enjoying your Music without the need for Windows troubleshooting.

Good Luck Daniel,

Curt

PS!  Daniel...I forgot "Lingering Glissandos"

Wow. Shame on me.

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes
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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Curt962 wrote:

Daniel,

Here we go again.  So much for me "not Cheerleading"  I was never quiet about my great satisfaction with the RME either.  In this case, the inconspicuously small Pi-4 has delivered the goods.  The Server Computer sits in another room, while the Audio System lives in yet another room.  The Pi dressed in a nice Flirc Aluminum Heatsink Case quietly hides itself behind the IPS display.   In practice, it all looks like Magic.  As if the Audio System was plucking music out of thin air!  (It is!)  All this from a user that is the antithesis of a Computer Geek.   

I toss my suggestion into the Ring simply because streaming devices in general have for about 15yrs reliably kept me insulated from the PC audio aggravations.  The Pi is only here as a more Future-Resistant replacement for my old EOL Squeezebox devices.  Further,  You may note that I'm intentionally avoiding anecdotal chatter about Soundstages, Silky Strings, Honey-Like Vocals, and all the rest.  Meaningless Drivel. What ever is in the source file is what you get, and?  Your RMEs Bit-Test function will confirm that!   

Yes.  I'm quite satisfied, and this could work for you also.  The Return on Investment is quite high you might say.  Teamed with your RME?  You may actually find yourself enjoying your Music without the need for Windows troubleshooting.

Good Luck Daniel,

Curt

PS!  Daniel...I forgot "Lingering Glissandos"

Wow. Shame on me.

Again, thank you! I am glad it works so well for you.
Best,
Daniel

18 Reply by arnaoldobartolini (edited by arnaoldobartolini 2023-04-30 20:26:14)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

I have the same stutter problem on a Mac Mini using Apple Music. It doesn't happen all the time and indeed when rewinding the song it doesn't happen.

Apple Music doesn't show the sample rate by default. You have to click on an icon to see it. Due to this I was not able to tie the skipping to a sample rate change. I will check that now.

Apple Music does not change the sample rate going to the DAC automatically. Once the ADÌ DAC is set to a sample rate in the MIDI settings everything will get resampled to that rate. Changing the sample rate of the DAC in the MIDI settings will only take effect after a restart of Apple Music...heaven knows why!

I have the sample rate set to 48kHz and this doesn't change when playing a track with a different sample rate. Since the computer will oversample or downsample to this rate the ADI always sees 48kHz.

I did not have the skipping problem before. I don't know if it started with an upgrade to a newer firmware of the ADI or after an upgrade of the OS.

I'm hoping to find a solution because it is quite annoying.

Regards,

Arno.

19 Reply by arnaoldobartolini (edited by arnaoldobartolini 2023-04-30 19:54:25)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Is there any way could go back to the original firmware of the ADI DAC to check if it's a firmware problem?

Thanks,

Arno

20 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-05-01 08:19:20)

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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

By using an older version of fut updater. You can save them yourself under the appropriate name containing the version number. RME will provide you a download link if you need to downgrade. Downgrades are only required in rare cases.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
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Re: Stutter when changing to track with higher sample rate

Thanks, I'll try that.