• Neve
  • Neve
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • From: Paris
  • Registered: 2009-12-18
  • Posts: 17

Topic: FF800 & Analog Console.

Hi everyone,

I hope I’ve come to the right place, but I’m not really sure if this post belongs here or in the TotalMix section, so don’t be too harsh.
Here is my issue:
I’ve had my FF800 for at least 15-17 years now, and I could be happier with it.  I’m on an older Mac running Catalina and Logic Pro X 10.6.3.  Works great.  Now, I have this huge vintage 24-track recording console (NEVE) that I inherited a few years ago.  It works great as well.  I’ve always only used the first 8 inputs and outputs which are connected directly to the analog I/O of the FF800.  A few days ago I was offered another FF800 for cheap, and I bought it.  I was hoping to be able to use another 8 I/O (from 9-16) seamlessly.
Nope…. It’s a pain…. I followed online tutorials, and what not. But for the life of me, I can seem to figure it out.  I tried the ADAT 1 method (standalone), etc…. From the RME video on YouTube…. Nope.
For some reason channels 9 and 10 don’t agree.  They are connected to the input/output 1/2 of the second FF800, etc…. Moreover, with this method, the clock doesn’t sync properly between the 2 units…. They only properly sync using SPDIF I/O.  Otherwise if I set the master to 192, the slave sets itself to 48.  Master 88.2, slave sets itself to 44.2, etc…. Only with the SPDIF Word Clock does it work.  Am I missing something?

Anyways, if someone has a solution, I’d be happy to try it.
It will be much appreciated.  Thank you all for your help.

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-05-15 21:18:57)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,859

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

ADAT is an 8 channel protocol at single speed (44.1/48 kHz) and uses channel multiplexing to achieve double and quad speed.
To get the bandwidth for
- 88.2 kHz you need 2 multiplexed channels @44.1 kHz and you have only 4 channels in total
- 192 kHz you need 4 multiplexed channels @48 kHz and you have only 2 channels in total.

At the end, each of the channels stay at either 44.1 or 48 kHz, no matter whether you use single, double, or quad speed.
Similar thing with MADI: 64ch @single speed, 32ch @double speed, 16ch @quad speed.
There is nothing like a protocol header which could tell the receiving unit, whether you have single, double or quad speed.
The receiving unit can only see 44.1 or 48 kHz.
So you need to configure the devices manually for that reason.

The only recognition that works well for ADAT or MADI is single speed.
And what might also work is a recognition of 88.2 or 96 kHz when you set the devices one time to the proper speed.

You mentioned SPDIF, this is an entirely different protocol from ground up, similar to AES.
You have only 2 channels, and therefore it supports sample rates from 44.1 up to 192 kHz.

So, either you set the sample rate manually on each of the devices, or you stay at single speed, then changing between 44.1 and 48 kHz will work flawlessly.
And as I told, it could also be the case that changes between 88.2 and 96 kHz might also work, once you configured all devices for either 88.2 or 96 kHz.

When using two FF800, then you need to route everything through the DAW, then you have the full RTL over FW400 for every signal flow. If this is fine by you, then ok, for pure recording this is sufficient.

More beneficial might be for you to get a MADI-based interface with a 16 or 32 port AD/DA converter.

At least, you would need a recording interface with 8 analog ports plus 2 ADAT ports to be able to have 16x analog I/O up to double speed. A combination of UFX II and an 8-port AD/DA converter through the two ADAT ports would do.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 Reply by oli77sch (edited by oli77sch 2023-05-15 21:13:46)

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

Hi
Yes, there is a lot of routing needed in TotalMix of the second unit to make it a standalone converter.
For the clock there is a 'single speed' setting in Fireface settings app which can be enabled or disabled. But it's also no problem to have it at single speed. Don't forget at higher sample rates there are not eight channels per optical ADAT cable anymore!
(EDIT: I didn't see ramses' reply before).

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

ramses wrote:

There is nothing like a protocol header which could tell the receiving unit, whether you have single, double or quad speed.
The receiving unit can only see 44.1 or 48 kHz.
So you need to configure the devices manually for that reason.

Hmmm... from another forum post:

MC wrote:

There is no 96 kHz clock. The Focusrite might support (send) an inofficial 96 kHz SMUX indication (as most RME units do), which then gives a direct readout with that frequency at the RME input. The carrier is still 48 kHz, though.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,859

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

It's a not so easy topic. So, do you mean it might work when making the Neve to act as clock master?
The routing is not so much of a problem ... "isi pisi" submix mode, individual submixes per hw output, click to a HW output and turn faders of HW inputs and SW playbacks .. well this is manageable ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 Reply by Neve (edited by Neve 2023-05-16 01:53:49)

  • Neve
  • Neve
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • From: Paris
  • Registered: 2009-12-18
  • Posts: 17

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

Thanks guys.  Let’s forget about the speed for the moment.  I’m only recording at 48K anyway.  I was just wondering why the behavior was not the same when I used SPDIF and ADAT.  Now I think I get it.  Thanks.

Now, I have no intention whatsoever of purchasing another setup.
@ramses This Neve console can never be a clock master.  It’s an all analog console from 1978 or 1979.  There is no clock.

All I need is to be able the route the SECOND unit analog I/O 1-8 to the Neve I/O 9-16.  They are already physically connected.

I can’t figure out how to do that “properly”.  Anyone has any idea how to setup TotalMix for that?  It’s not very intuitive to me at all.

Thanks for your help and your comments.

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

So for the setup of the second FF800:
1: connect it to the computer (and maybe disconnect the other one to avoid confusion)
2: if you want, check the firmware in the Fireface settings app and if needed, update it (v2.77 from 2012 is the newest!). For this, the flash update tool would be needed
3: go to the Fireface settings app. I would recommend to set the clock mode to AutoSync with preferred sync ref. to the one you want to use, most logical ADAT 1 input (because it would be connected over optical ADAT anyway to have additional analog outputs). Set the inputs (front/rear) and line levels to your needs. After having done all settings, click on 'store' to save them to the internal memory!
4: go to TotalMix - mixer window. Set it to 'submix' mode (blue control strip on the right side). Do a total reset (I think you’ll find that in the 'options' menu). Now load factory default mix nr. 1. or do the routing manually. (Normally all channels are grouped to stereo pairs.)
First analog —> ADAT:
click on the ADAT 1/2 hardware output. Now you can see the 'active' mix for this particular output. Open the input faders (better to say, set it to '0' by double click) of the analog hardware inputs you want as first two additional channels (nr. 9/10 from the console). Close all other input channel faders and all software playback faders. Now the two analog input channels are directly routed to the first two ADAT output channels. Now click on ADAT outputs 3/4, open the faders of the next two analog inputs, and close all other input and playback faders. Go on with ADAT out 5/6, then 7/8…
So all output faders have to be open (at +/- 0 dB), and for every mix only one particular input fader has to be open.
Now ADAT—>analog (if you want to use more analog outputs). It’s the same here. Select an analog output pair, then open the ADAT input.
If it’s all done, double check the faders, then store the mixer state to the unit!!
Now it should work. The FireWire connection is not needed anymore for the second FF, only the optical cables in both directions between the two units.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,690

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

I'm not exactly sure I get what you are trying to do, but you do realize that 9/10 are analog microphone inputs? About your idea of "seamlessly"... You will need to take these into account.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • Neve
  • Neve
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • From: Paris
  • Registered: 2009-12-18
  • Posts: 17

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

oli77sch wrote:

So for the setup of the second FF800:
1: connect it to the computer (and maybe disconnect the other one to avoid confusion)
2: if you want, check the firmware in the Fireface settings app and if needed, update it (v2.77 from 2012 is the newest!). For this, the flash update tool would be needed
3: go to the Fireface settings app. I would recommend to set the clock mode to AutoSync with preferred sync ref. to the one you want to use, most logical ADAT 1 input (because it would be connected over optical ADAT anyway to have additional analog outputs). Set the inputs (front/rear) and line levels to your needs. After having done all settings, click on 'store' to save them to the internal memory!
4: go to TotalMix - mixer window. Set it to 'submix' mode (blue control strip on the right side). Do a total reset (I think you’ll find that in the 'options' menu). Now load factory default mix nr. 1. or do the routing manually. (Normally all channels are grouped to stereo pairs.)
First analog —> ADAT:
click on the ADAT 1/2 hardware output. Now you can see the 'active' mix for this particular output. Open the input faders (better to say, set it to '0' by double click) of the analog hardware inputs you want as first two additional channels (nr. 9/10 from the console). Close all other input channel faders and all software playback faders. Now the two analog input channels are directly routed to the first two ADAT output channels. Now click on ADAT outputs 3/4, open the faders of the next two analog inputs, and close all other input and playback faders. Go on with ADAT out 5/6, then 7/8…
So all output faders have to be open (at +/- 0 dB), and for every mix only one particular input fader has to be open.
Now ADAT—>analog (if you want to use more analog outputs). It’s the same here. Select an analog output pair, then open the ADAT input.
If it’s all done, double check the faders, then store the mixer state to the unit!!
Now it should work. The FireWire connection is not needed anymore for the second FF, only the optical cables in both directions between the two units.

Thanks,

I will try that when I get back to the studio.  Will report how it went.

Regards

  • Neve
  • Neve
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • From: Paris
  • Registered: 2009-12-18
  • Posts: 17

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

RME Support wrote:

I'm not exactly sure I get what you are trying to do, but you do realize that 9/10 are analog microphone inputs? About your idea of "seamlessly"... You will need to take these into account.

It’s quite simple.  I’m only using the physical analog I/O of the 2 FireFaces located at the back.  I am not using ANY of the front connectors except for (sometimes) both microphone outputs.  I do not need any mic inputs, as I have 24 awesome ones on the console.
What I want achieve is to route I/O 1-8 on the first unit to 1-8 on the computer, and 1-8 on the second unit to 9-16 on the computer.
However, the Mac sees perfectly the first unit as being routed from 1-8, but the other 1-8 I/O from the second unit are seen as 13, 14, etc… ,19.

Is that clearer?

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

Neve wrote:

…What I want achieve is to route I/O 1-8 on the first unit to 1-8 on the computer, and 1-8 on the second unit to 9-16 on the computer.
However, the Mac sees perfectly the first unit as being routed from 1-8, but the other 1-8 I/O from the second unit are seen as 13, 14, etc… ,19.

Is that clearer?

Not clear at all. What do you mean by 'on the Mac (or computer)'?
Where is that? In the DAW? In Totalmix?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • Neve
  • Neve
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • From: Paris
  • Registered: 2009-12-18
  • Posts: 17

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

oli77sch wrote:
Neve wrote:

…What I want achieve is to route I/O 1-8 on the first unit to 1-8 on the computer, and 1-8 on the second unit to 9-16 on the computer.
However, the Mac sees perfectly the first unit as being routed from 1-8, but the other 1-8 I/O from the second unit are seen as 13, 14, etc… ,19.

Is that clearer?

Not clear at all. What do you mean by 'on the Mac (or computer)'?
Where is that? In the DAW? In Totalmix?

The computer, and therefore the DAW as well.
Sorry for the confusion.

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

Neve wrote:
oli77sch wrote:
Neve wrote:

…What I want achieve is to route I/O 1-8 on the first unit to 1-8 on the computer, and 1-8 on the second unit to 9-16 on the computer.
However, the Mac sees perfectly the first unit as being routed from 1-8, but the other 1-8 I/O from the second unit are seen as 13, 14, etc… ,19.

Is that clearer?

Not clear at all. What do you mean by 'on the Mac (or computer)'?
Where is that? In the DAW? In Totalmix?

The computer, and therefore the DAW as well.
Sorry for the confusion.

How and where is the second FF800 connected?
Over FireWire to the Mac?
Over optical ADAT to the first FF800?
Do you use only the first FF800 as interface or did you set both the units as aggregate device in Mac Audio-Midi-Setup?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

14 Reply by Neve (edited by Neve 2023-05-16 21:33:12)

  • Neve
  • Neve
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • From: Paris
  • Registered: 2009-12-18
  • Posts: 17

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

In other words,when I select input 1 (or output q) within the DAW, I know it's the first channel strip on the console, etc..
Right now, I have to instruct the DAW to use output 13 to use channel strip 9 on the console.  Because channel strip 9 I/O ion the console s physically connected to analog I/O 1 on the 2nd FF.  But the computer sees it at I/O 13.
Am I making any sense?

15 Reply by oli77sch (edited by oli77sch 2023-05-16 22:02:04)

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

Neve wrote:

In other words,when I select input 1 (or output q) within the DAW, I know it's the first channel strip on the console, etc..
Right now, I have to instruct the DAW to use output 13 to use channel strip 9 on the console.  Because channel strip 9 I/O ion the console s physically connected to analog I/O 1 on the 2nd FF.  But the computer sees it at I/O 13.
Am I making any sense?

IF the two Firefaces are connected over an optical cable, THEN the 'first' Fireface - this is the interface for the Mac, right? - receives the analog channels 1-8 from the second Fireface on the first eight ADAT channels. But exactly these channels are Nr. 13-20 in the overall channel number list.
On the FF800, channels are numbered as follows:
1-10 = analog 1-10
11/12 = SPDIF (coaxial)
13-20 = ADAT optical 1-8 (port 1)
21-28 = ADAT optical 9-16 (port 2)
As soon all inputs reach the internal DSP (after A/D conversion or after SPDIF and ADAT receivers), there is no more difference, 28 channels of digital audio going thru the FireWire connection to the Mac. Regardless of what and where something is connected.
So in short: having the signals from console channels 9-16 on DAW input channels 13-20 is absolutely fine!

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • Neve
  • Neve
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • From: Paris
  • Registered: 2009-12-18
  • Posts: 17

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

oli77sch wrote:
Neve wrote:

In other words,when I select input 1 (or output q) within the DAW, I know it's the first channel strip on the console, etc..
Right now, I have to instruct the DAW to use output 13 to use channel strip 9 on the console.  Because channel strip 9 I/O ion the console s physically connected to analog I/O 1 on the 2nd FF.  But the computer sees it at I/O 13.
Am I making any sense?

IF the two Firefaces are connected over an optical cable, THEN the 'first' Fireface - this is the interface for the Mac, right? - receives the analog channels 1-8 from the second Fireface on the first eight ADAT channels. But exactly these channels are Nr. 13-20 in the overall channel number list.
On the FF800, channels are numbered as follows:
1-10 = analog 1-10
11/12 = SPDIF (coaxial)
13-20 = ADAT optical 1-8 (port 1)
21-28 = ADAT optical 9-16 (port 2)
As soon all inputs reach the internal DSP (after A/D conversion or after SPDIF and ADAT receivers), there is no more difference, 28 channels of digital audio going thru the FireWire connection to the Mac. Regardless of what and where something is connected.
So in short: having the signals from console channels 9-16 on DAW input channels 13-20 is absolutely fine!

Thanks a lot for your explanation.  I think I got it.  To properly function the way I need, they cannot be setup as one unit, like in the video I saw, correct?  I would love that, but I have no idea how to setup TotalMix for that.  I tried, but I can’t make it worked.
This is the video:  https://youtu.be/Oibj81QIq4s

He is talking about setting one up as a stand-alone unit and have the other one connected to it via ADAT 1.
I tried, but setting up TotalMix the way he does it, doesn’t work for me.  His TotalMix is probably an older version which is not laid out the same as mine.  I can’t figure it out.  And he only shows the settings for one unit, not the other (or an eventual third one).

Any thoughts?

Regards.

17 Reply by oli77sch (edited by oli77sch 2023-05-17 22:33:46)

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

If both units are connected to the computer, you will have two separate TotalMix windows for each unit in every case. Or one window in which you can switch from one unit to the other using the menu top right.
That's because TotalMix runs on the unit itself (DSP). So the app is only there to control the mixing and routing, but the processes happen in the Fireface.
On Mac, the only way to use the two units as 'one big interface' is to create an aggregate device in the Mac Audio-Midi-Setup app (still there are two Totalmix windows).
I think, for your needs, it makes more sense to set up one of the units as standalone converter. As I already described, of course this unit has to be connected to the computer first to make all the routings. As soon all settings are stored to the internal memory, the Firewire connection of this unit is not needed anymore but also can persist. In this case, it's easier to make some adjustments if needed. On the other side: as long both units are connected to the computer, it's a bit hard to see which one is which...

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

18 Reply by oli77sch (edited by oli77sch 2023-05-17 22:35:26)

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

Neve wrote:

He is talking about setting one up as a stand-alone unit and have the other one connected to it via ADAT 1.

It's exactly what I described some posts above! (Post No 7)

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

19 Reply by Neve (edited by Neve 2023-05-18 01:36:15)

  • Neve
  • Neve
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • From: Paris
  • Registered: 2009-12-18
  • Posts: 17

Re: FF800 & Analog Console.

oli77sch wrote:
Neve wrote:

He is talking about setting one up as a stand-alone unit and have the other one connected to it via ADAT 1.

It's exactly what I described some posts above! (Post No 7)

Oh, I didn’t realize that, sorry.  I will definitely try that tomorrow.  Will tell you how it goes.

Thanks again.

Regards.