1 (edited by pschuegr 2023-08-31 19:50:28)

Topic: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

I noticed some problems with the RME drivers yesterday (4.0.82), where TotalMix seemed to be registering itself with the system as a microphone repeatedly and maybe failing?  This was coinciding with audio dropouts and glitches.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fG3NnO … sp=sharing

Has anybody seen this before?

(Babyface Pro)

TLDR of this thread:
Both high and low sample buffer sizes can cause problems on Apple Silicon machines, you need to experiment to find the right size for your setup.

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Never seen before.
Bitwig and Totalmix are fighting each other for the Microphone lady ?
MacOS can't handle this.

i did a test and both apps are working with no issue.
Ventura 13.4 update today
RME driver 408 with the Digiface USB
BitwigStudio 4.4

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Thanks for checking! I'm on 13.3.1 so I guess I'll play the update game.

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

No such luck unfortunately.  Is there an official RME support channel for this kind of thing? I very much doubt that this is Bitwig related, it looks like this is between the driver and the OS.

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Not something I've seen... When exactly does this happen? Only with Bitwig running?

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

6 (edited by pschuegr 2023-05-22 22:17:07)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

It's hard to say because I pretty much always use Bitwig and my RME devices at the same time. 

I can try and a) use my UCXII for non music-related things and see how it goes b) shut down Bitwig next time it's happening and see if it stops.

It's a little strange because sometimes I can get it to stop by opening Totalmix and recalling a different snapshot or jiggling something (but not always so not very conclusive). 

Any suggestions on getting more information?

7 (edited by pschuegr 2023-05-22 22:20:57)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Although, you know what, on careful watching of the video, it's actually Bitwig that's registering and unregistering and not Totalmix.  I'll ping them as well!

IIRC it was Totalmix that was flapping if I go down to the microphone section, but I'll get more evidence of that before I say more.

8 (edited by ramses 2023-05-23 06:06:52)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

pschuegr wrote:

Although, you know what, on careful watching of the video, it's actually Bitwig that's registering and unregistering and not Totalmix.  I'll ping them as well!

IIRC it was Totalmix that was flapping if I go down to the microphone section, but I'll get more evidence of that before I say more.

I would compare with another DAW product which is major player / de facto standard in the DAW market since long:
- Reaper is easy to install and has good quality or
- demo version of Cubase

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

9 (edited by pschuegr 2023-05-24 16:19:03)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Haven't been able to reproduce with Reaper yet, but that's not conclusive since I don't have much in the way of large projects there and I'm not using it as frequently.  However, I did manage to capture a video of the problem where it's Totalmix that's flapping.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qWHkts … drive_link

This did stop once I shut down Bitwig, but that doesn't really prove anything one way or the other.  I'm unable to reproduce this at all using internal audio, which points away from BW and towards the RME drivers.

[Talking to BW and Apple support as well]

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

In the Mac system preferences : security & privacy - Microphone
Check if Totalmix and Bitwig are enabled for access.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

They are both enabled.  I tried all the permutations of [have microphone access, no microphone access] X [Bitwig, TotalMix] and none of the ones that were usable solved the problem.

12 (edited by pschuegr 2023-05-25 16:21:28)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

So I talked to Bitwig support, and their thinking is that because it doesn't happen with internal audio on the MacBook it is not happening inside the Bitwig audio engine and is somewhere between coreaudio and the RME driver.

Can somebody from RME comment on how I might go about getting more information? I'm happy to do anything I can to help track this down.

If anybody else feels like having a go at testing this, I've noticed that it's a lot easier to reproduce at high buffer sizes - I've been running at 2048.

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

You could simply set up some random projects in Reaper and keep enabling effects and plugins... Doesn't have to make any musical sense.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

I'll do that if I get some time.  However, at this point I'm pretty comfortable saying it's an RME driver issue because:

- Have spent hundreds of hours using the internal audio (when I'm not near one of my RME devices) in the same situation without issue, whereas I've spent about 1 hour trying to reproduce unsuccessfully with Reaper.
- It's noticeably worse with the 4.08 driver than with the 3.28 driver.

I've emailed support officially (which might be you anyway?) - I'd forgotten there even was a support email for RME wink

15 (edited by pschuegr 2023-06-11 02:15:51)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Ok, that was easy enough, with Reaper:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JXYjIP … 4zKBO/view

16

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Are BF Pro and UCX II both used? Above you mention BF Pro, but in the video TM FX is not connected to the BF Pro. To further find the cause you should use only one interface and restart TM FX so that in the device list only the current one is shown.

Then for a further test disable the mic inputs of the interface and only use the other channels in a project.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

17 (edited by pschuegr 2023-06-08 15:35:03)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Thanks MC, I do not use them both simultaneously.  When you say "disable the mic inputs" do you mean

a) mute them
b) don't register them in the DAW
c) some other method

I disabled the microphone for the DAW in the MacOS settings, obviously this makes recording impossible but I can do it just to see if the glitching continues.

This glitching happens independent of whether there are microphone channels armed in the DAW (it happens frequently during playback/mixing).

18 (edited by waedi 2023-06-06 21:38:08)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

b
Depending on the DAW active input channels can use CPU and causing dropouts.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Thanks waedi, I will try that and see how it goes.

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

No change - no inputs registered in Bitwig, same problem.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19k2hrL … jlElv/view

21 (edited by pschuegr 2023-06-11 01:26:26)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Ok, I spent all day using a Scarlett interface with no problems, but my Babyface still has this problem the instant I plug it in.  I made a vid where I swapped back and forth:

Babyface: weirdness
Scarlett: fine
Babyface: weirdness

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1U6BelJ … -DMYF/view

I opened a ticket with Apple to see if I could get some help there neutral

22 (edited by waedi 2023-06-11 01:38:56)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Isn't that Scarlett a Class-Compliant interface ?
If so, then how does it compare to the Babyface CC ?
Press and hold the two buttons SELECT and DIM during power up switches between CC-mode and Computer-mode.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

I've already reproduced this with UCX II in CC mode neutral

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Next test should be with a different DAW.
Reaper is perfect for testing. For free.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

25 (edited by pschuegr 2023-06-11 02:47:24)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Already reproduced with Reaper smile

- Bitwig: REPRODUCED
- Reaper: REPRODUCED
- Babyface Pro: REPRODUCED
- UCX II: REPRODUCED
- UCX II in CC mode: REPRODUCED
- onboard sound: COULDN'T REPRO
- Scarlett device: COULDN'T REPRO

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

You may have to rollback to the previous driver :
https://rme-audio.de/downloads/driver_usb_mac_328b2.zip

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

27 (edited by pschuegr 2023-06-11 03:03:10)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

So, it's less frequent with the previous driver, but it still happens.  I'm really at a loss now as to exactly what the problem is, but I just want to work on things without  this interrupting me.  Contemplating switching OSes or sound devices (which I very much don't want to do).

28 (edited by oli77sch 2023-06-11 08:58:20)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Hi
On the way to sort things out, I discovered there is one reason to show Totalmix as an app using the "microphone" in the control menu (top right): it's only when reverb and/or echo effect(s) are enabled. The Babyface pro is the only interface which cannot process the effects on the internal DSP. It sends the audio to the computer over the additional channels 13/14 to process it on the host computer's CPU. On my Mac (M1 mini, Ventura), TotalMix appears only in that specific moment in the control section, as soon the effects are disabled, it's not there anymore. Can you check this once? Do you have effects in use?

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Ooh.  Interesting theory, I will look at this.  Since I also have this problem on the UCX II, I kind of doubt that it's the whole answer to the problem, but I usually have the effects on for monitoring so I'll try turning them off and seeing what happens.

Thanks Oli!

30 (edited by pschuegr 2023-06-11 15:38:13)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

The plot thickens:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1D3xYgD … drive_link

I installed Jack to see what I could learn, and despite Jack using CoreAudio under the hood, the problem does not seem to be present when using Jack!

I think this pretty conclusively isolates the problem to CoreAudio somewhere in the layer that handles the output from the DAW, does this make sense?

DAW => CoreAudio playback API => CoreAudio routing => RME driver => RME device (problem exists)
DAW => Jack playback API => CoreAudio routing => RME driver => RME device (no problem)

Now the puzzling scenario is:

DAW => CoreAudio playback API => CoreAudio routing => CC driver => Scarlett device (no problem)
DAW => CoreAudio playback API => CoreAudio routing => CC driver => RME device (problem exists)

I'm going to revisit that last one and make sure I didn't make a mistake in testing it.

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

pschuegr wrote:

Ooh.  Interesting theory, I will look at this.  Since I also have this problem on the UCX II, I kind of doubt that it's the whole answer to the problem, but I usually have the effects on for monitoring so I'll try turning them off and seeing what happens.

Thanks Oli!

Having the issue with UCX II is strange. Is the Babyface pro physically disconnected then?
Anyway I don’t understand it, beside the effect send/return with the Babyface pro, TotalMix doesn’t use audio transmission. On my Mac, the orange „audio on“ indicator in the menu (beside the control center icon) disappears as soon I disable the effects in TotalMix (and no other audio app is open).

FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

I use the UCX II and the Babyface independently, they are in different locations, so they're never connected at the same time.  I'm working with the UCX II at the moment since I'm at home, but I'll try that the next time I'm in the studio.

33 (edited by pschuegr 2023-08-06 00:07:33)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Well, I wasn't able to distinguish any difference between effects on and off.  I've mostly gone to using a Scarlett interface that belongs to a friend.

There were some reports that Mac OS Sonoma might have fixed some problems, so I tested that.  The problem seems a bit less frequent but it's still there.  The nice thing is they've made the microphone notification sit in the top bar so it's very much obvious now when it's going wacky.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aCZGbb … drive_link

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Attempted to do a reinstall of Sonoma, no help.

Bizarrely, it seems like I have fewer dropouts when I crank the buffer size down to 256 or so than when I use 2048.  Looking at CPU usage, it seems like some of the load is shifted away from the performance cores when the buffer size is large.

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

That's the hell of big.little CPU architecture that Apple has introduced to PCs....

36 (edited by pschuegr 2023-08-29 21:26:25)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Ok.  Fingers crossed, I think this might actually be fixed.  It looks like that might have been the key:

BIG FLASHING LIGHTS
The Apple silicon architecture does not respond in the expected way to jacking up the buffer size, which is what I've always done to fix problems like this.
/BIG FLASHING LIGHTS

It seems like once you hit a high enough buffer size, the M1 moves work from the performance to the efficiency cores.  Once that happens, the work scheduling can no longer fill the buffer in all situations, and it's dependent on whatever magic algorithm Apple is using to decide which cores to use, which is why it's been so difficult to track down.  This must have interacted with the userspace drivers in a different way than previously, so it got worse with the 4.0.82 driver.

Using 256 sample size and saw no issues this morning as opposed to my previous 2048.

37

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Does your last post now refer to Sonoma beta?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

38 (edited by pschuegr 2023-08-30 03:42:25)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

Hi MC,

I'm not sure which of these questions you're asking but:

1) Am I currently on Sonoma beta?
Yes, Version 14.0 Beta (23A5328b) with 4.0.82 drivers.

2) Does the comment above (#36) about the buffer sizes and the performance vs efficiency cores refer to Sonoma beta in particular?
No, I believe this has always been the case.  Ableton has an article about it (https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic … ilicon-Mac) too bad I didn't find it sooner.  neutral

It seems Apple did improve something related to memory pressure in the Sonoma beta, there are lots of people in this thread (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … pro.42001/) who are reporting their issues fixed by the beta, but the beta alone was not enough to fix my issue so I believe the primary problem was having my buffer size set too high.  It seems plausible the buffer size change alone would have fixed my problem pre-Sonoma.

You can see here where I increased the buffer size: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UHOCeY … drive_link

39 (edited by pschuegr 2023-08-30 03:54:53)

Re: [Solved] Issues with RME driver 4.0.82/Totalmix + Mac OS Ventura

I think now that the microphone registration glitch is a side effect (and the only visual indicator) of the efficiency cores failing to do the necessary work on schedule, which resulted in: a) audio glitching and b) the microphone no longer considering itself attached to the process.  Possibly there's some kind of timeout in coreaudiod?  This is wild speculation.

I also speculate that the onboard sound and Scarlett interface (which is CC) are running in kernel space so are not subject to this problem for some reason.  Somebody who is more knowledgeable than I am might be able to confirm.