1 Topic by vdamir78 (edited by vdamir78 2023-06-20 15:08:11)

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Topic: How to handle live situations

Hi.
I have been reading about UFX III and I am getting closer to ordering one. However, I have some concerns so here is my situation:
- I am a drummer with my own studio and I have been doing some tracking for myself and customers, and I pretty much got everything figured out when it comes to (future) tracking with the ufx III.
- however, I also tend to practice (drums) on daily basis and 99% of my practicing involves a fully mic-ed drum setup utilizing my headphones. Now, with that said, I read that in the past couple of years people had complaints about no noise-gate being available as a part of real-time dsp effects and in some instances the expander was mentioned as a replacement that would come in instead of a dedicated gate.
So, for tracking, I don't need gate (I am dealing with that as I begin mixing), but for my every day-use I can't really bring myself into a situation where most of the mics pick up a lot of unwanted noise. It is 2023, I haven't found any topics on this issue after 2020, so can you please help me out here.
I am currently using a presonus mixer (studiolive 3) and even though I got my iem to sound super nice, the mixer is limited to 48khz and I also advaced beyond its preamps by getting myself a bunch of outboard analogue preamps. So I wanted my next step to be an interface that is super quality and to be able to jump to 96khz at least

Anyways, as the title says, this is a, kind of, live situation, how can I overcome the bleed that will definitely be present in most of those 15 mics that I am using.
Thanks

  • waedi
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Re: How to handle live situations

I would use a DAW Reaper and Gate and EQ plugins. It adds some latency thats the downside.
There is no way to eliminate all bleedings, just workarounds to reduce unwanted sound.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

3 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-06-21 07:14:27)

  • ramses
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Re: How to handle live situations

I don't think DAW plugins are a viable solution for this use case because you have conflicting requirements.

On the one hand, the lowest possible RTL for listening through the headphones while playing, on the other hand, a sufficiently high safety buffer (>=512 samples up to 2048 at single speed), so that there are no dropouts during the recordings.

Side note: I would use DURec additionally to have a backup recording.

To get the lowest possible latencies (definitively below 10ms) I would route the microphone signal directly to the headphones at the UFX III and exclude the RTL completely for the monitoring.

In my opinion, the solution to this problem lies around optimal microphone positioning. So to speak, positioning the microphones as close as possible to the source so that the useful signal is as low as possible in relation to the bleed and to use the suitable mic for the job. You can google to this topic, I found some interesting hits quickly.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to handle live situations

waedi wrote:

I would use a DAW Reaper and Gate and EQ plugins. It adds some latency thats the downside.
There is no way to eliminate all bleedings, just workarounds to reduce unwanted sound.

Actually there is and I am currently using it; my mixer's gate. Or it is good enough so I was able to have a nice sounding iem.
Sure, good mic placement handles more issues but you simply cannot solve everything with just that.

5 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2023-06-21 08:07:00)

  • waedi
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Re: How to handle live situations

I also would reduce the numbers of mics for the monitoring, only the two overheads and one snare and one kick.
All other mics only for recording, after the recording the usual routine mixing work.
Less microphones in the headphone, less bleeding.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

6 Reply by vdamir78 (edited by vdamir78 2023-06-21 08:48:43)

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Re: How to handle live situations

waedi wrote:

I also would reduce the numbers of mics for the monitoring, only the two overheads and one snare and one kick.
All other mics only for recording, after the recording the usual routine mixing work.
Less microphones in the headphone, less bleeding.

I guess that would work for tracking, maybe it would be even better so the drummer can concentrate better. However for everyday practice I either need most of the mics or no mics at all.

Anyways how about this: I will obviously have to keep the mixer and since some of my preamps are halfnormalled, I could have the entire mic setup running into the UFX and most of it back into the mixer. So, can UFX be used just for in/out when it comes to mic signals? Meaning some of them would be going to UFX's inputs and back through outputs into my mixer? Without latency in this instance...?

  • waedi
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Re: How to handle live situations

Yes you can use all Mic inputs at the UFX and send them via analog outs to the Mixer.
In Totalmix you have to route those signals and they will proceed latency free.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
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Re: How to handle live situations

waedi wrote:

Yes you can use all Mic inputs at the UFX and send them via analog outs to the Mixer.
In Totalmix you have to route those signals and they will proceed latency free.

That is great.
But still it is a bitter sweet feeling about this gate or simply a fuller channel strip issue.
I got a friend that has the UA apollo and those devices can handle extra processing such as channel strips.
I bet RME is being too careful about this, and they could've introduced a simple gate on account of lesser compressor options. I just wrote in the other thread that having a gate turned on with disabling some of compressor knobs (make them auto for example) would most likely preserve dsp resources...

  • ramses
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Re: How to handle live situations

If you have a HW device for noise cancellation, then you can route audio through this device and then to your headphones.
Converter latency for AD and DA are extremely low for these converters. Only 5 / 6 samples which is very low.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to handle live situations

ramses wrote:

If you have a HW device for noise cancellation, then you can route audio through this device and then to your headphones.
Converter latency for AD and DA are extremely low for these converters. Only 5 / 6 samples which is very low.

What is "HW"? smile
Though I probably don't have it.

  • ramses
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Re: How to handle live situations

HW = Hardware. A device with analog ports as TM FX is not designed to load VST's.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to handle live situations

ramses wrote:

HW = Hardware. A device with analog ports as TM FX is not designed to load VST's.

Oh. No I don't.  But even if I did, the gating on a, say, floor tom would not be the same as it was on a kick-in mic. I did stumble upon some outboard gates, but iirc they were all single-channel...and that kind of investment would be huge, considering the intended use.

Btw, what about the expander section that RME has? I read somewhere that it could kind-of serve the purpose of a gate?

  • ramses
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Re: How to handle live situations

Didn't you find this topic on your own already?
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?pid=112201

Did it work for you, using the expander for this purpose?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How to handle live situations

ramses wrote:

Didn't you find this topic on your own already?
https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?pid=112201

Did it work for you, using the expander for this purpose?

yep, I did find it.
But I haven't yet bought the UFX III smile
Still thinking my options, but all things considered, even though there is no gate that we drummers so much love, I will end up ordering the UFX III.