1 Topic by Brdm (edited by Brdm 2023-07-24 23:10:31)

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Topic: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Hello there,

I was wondering, now that akm is back in business, are there any plans on bringing back the ak4493 dac chips on the da side?

At the risk of opening a big can of worms here: I happen to dislike the ess equipped dac (it's the only reason I returned the unit. Absolutely love the ad side). I'm now trialing the original grey adi-2 pro fs version (with the ak4490 chips) and am really enjoying the da all of a sudden. This is regardless of the filter being used. So unless I somehow got used to the sound in the meantime, I'm someone who actually likes one and dislikes the other.

Unfortunately I couldn't get a hold of a black edition with the ak4493 chip, and now I'm in doubt if I should keep the ak4490 one, keep searching for a ak4493 one (is there a noticeable difference  anyway?), or maybe wait until RME decides to start using akm da chips again (if that's ever going to happen).

Hopefully someone can enlighten me.

Thanks

2 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2023-07-25 05:19:08)

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

I have both, the AKM 4490 ADI-2 Pro and the ESS ADI-2/4 Pro SE.

Indeed same named DA-Filters are mostly different in both chips, making an audible difference.
The frequency responses are published in their manuals.


Selecting equally shaped DA-Fiters I couldn’t determine a sound difference in a level matched blind A/B.

But - my favorite AKM 4490 “Slow“-Filter isn’t available in the ESS the same way, so I usually choose the ESS’s “SD LD”-Filter instead.
Both are different, but I can live with both of them quite well.
The ESS “SD-LD”-Filter sounds a tick more open than AKM’s “Slow”, which is OK for me.

When I find the time I’ll do another blind A/B, but doing it right takes some hours, really.
The difference isn’t night and day, and one can easily fool himself if done just so-so.

BTW: DA-Filters only make an audible difference at sample rates 44.1 and 48 kHz. From 88.2 kHz and above they are way out of the audible range.

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3 Reply by Brdm (edited by Brdm 2023-07-25 12:16:59)

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Thx for sharing. Not really sure what to make of it though. Would you say they could differ enough that someone could like the 4490 one and dislike the ess one?

I tried hard to like the da side on the 2/4 over the course of the few weeks I had it, but no matter what I tried (changing filters), something in the highs/high mids just kept bugging me.

None of that with the 4490 one right now, but as I said, I'm open to the possibility that somehow my ears just recognize the sound now and got used to it. Guess the only way to find out is comparing them directly.

Still wondering whether RME is planning on moving back to akm for these models.

4 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2023-07-25 21:54:50)

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Brdm wrote:

Thx for sharing. Not really sure what to make of it though. If I'm not mistaken you'd say that to your ears they don't differ enough that someone could like the 4490 one and dislike the ess one?

I wouldn‘t take it like that:

With both their so called “Sharp”-Filters and various 44.1 kHz music tracks there wasn’t a preference for 1st Gen. ADI-2 Pro or ADI-2/4 Pro SE.
In fact it was 49 to 51 for the global question “which one sounds better”, which is statistically completely in-significant.

The precisely level matched blind A/B took several hours, running through almost entire tracks for each comparison, no few-seconds back and forth.


Only - slower filters give me better definition, ambience and transparency than the Sharp-Filters.
AKM “Slow” vs. ESS “SD LD”, my best choices, let both devices sound different, but on the same quality stage somehow.

These results are remarkable I think, shines a great light on what the 1st generation ADI-2 Pro already achieved.


The problems with upper mid and treble you described reminds me on how I receive the “NOS”-Filter sound.
It’s audible aliasing artifacts create some unmusical “fog”, the opposite of “black background”.
The theoretical better impulse response doesn’t outweigh or cover this.

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5 Reply by Brdm (edited by Brdm 2023-07-25 19:23:11)

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Thx for sharing your thoughts. I'm gonna try and compare them directly.

What surprises me btw is that there definitely is an audible difference between the different filters even in 192 khz. A simple null test I did confirmed this, just to make sure I'm not fooling myself.

For instance, in nos mode the low end is more prominent when compared to sd sharp. Also, when focussing on where vocals sit in the mix it's quite easy to spot the differences, even in 192khz. Why this is the case, I don't know.

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Brdm wrote:

..in nos mode the low end is more prominent when compared to sd sharp...

There‘s a simple explanation for this:
NOS-filter has the most significant treble-rolloff, making the bass and the 2 kHz range stand out more, relative.
2 kHz is the frequency we audio engineers boost for better bass definition.

This explanation is not valid for 192 kHz sample rate, I have no idea what’s going on there.

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7 Reply by MC

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Brdm wrote:

What surprises me btw is that there definitely is an audible difference between the different filters even in 192 khz. A simple null test I did confirmed this.

There is no 'simple null test' when it comes to such statements. AD/DA converted material has subsample time shift that causes various null rests to be shown/heard. To do this in a meaningful way you need to upsample the files and nudge them with sub sample accuracy, plus correct the inaudible phase shift that is caused by the two different filters. A software like Deltawave can do that, and the difference result is then exactly what one expects, not some mysterious sound change proof.

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Matthias Carstens
RME

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8 Reply by Brdm (edited by Brdm 2023-07-26 15:43:36)

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Ok nevermind my "test" then.

Any chance you can address my initial question?

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Ok so I did the deltawave test as you said. Upsampled the 192khz files and it perfectly aligned them, as well as corrected for phase shifts.

Don't know what else could be flawed about my test, but 2 recordings made with the same filter at 192khz cancel way more than with different filters at 192khz. In that sense the result is indeed what I would expect, as I claim to be hearing differences between different filters at 192khz.

Anyway, this was by no means the reason I opened this topic, nor do I really care to be honest.

Just wanted to know whether RME will keep ess chips in their da's or contemplating on moving back to akm.

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Regarding the subject of this thread, you ask regarding ADI-2 Pro FS?
AFAIK and read this forum: _always_ had AKM.
Only exception, later ADI-2 DAC FS and the new ADI-2/4 Pro SE.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

11 Reply by Brdm (edited by Brdm 2023-07-28 23:32:52)

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Hmm as far as I'm aware the original adi-2 pro fs (grey one) has the ak4490. The earlier adi-2 pro fs be had the akm ak4493. Since around 1.5 or 2(?) years I think they're equiped with the ess. You can see which version you have at the rear of the unit. If the serial nr on the sticker has b at the end it has the ak4493, if it has a c it has the ess I think.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you're very lucky if you'd still find an adi-2 pro fs be with the akm chip, if you happen to prefer that chip that is. Since most of them must be sold out by now.

So yeah, I'm asking about adi-2 pro fs be and adi-2/4.

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Brdm wrote:

Hmm as far as I'm aware the original adi-2 pro fs (grey one) has the ak4490. The earlier adi-2 pro fs be had the akm ak4493. Since around 1.5 or 2(?) years I think they're equiped with the ess. You can see which version you have at the rear of the unit. If the serial nr on the sticker has b at the end it has the ak4493, if it has a c it has the ess I think.

No, that information refers to the ADI-2 DAC, not the ADI-2 Pro, which uses AKM chips in all it‘s iterations.

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13 Reply by Brdm (edited by Brdm 2023-07-29 00:01:52)

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Re: Akm da chips back in adi-2 pro fs?

Wow thx for clearing that up man. Totally missed it. Means there's no reason not to swap my pro fs (still in trial period) for the black edition that I can get even cheaper.