Topic: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

I have an iMac M1, using an RME Babyface Pro FS and I just got a Mac Mini M2 Pro, installed RME drivers and tried to use the same Babyface on it.  For some reason, the volume of the main outputs is very low.  All the relevant volume meters I could think of are set high.  I have installed the DriverKit drivers on both computers.  Babyface firmware is 205.  Connecting my phones on the Babyface the volume they play fine, full volume.  Any idea on how I could debug this would be of great help.

2 (edited by waedi 2023-08-20 00:53:50)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

At the bottom is a switch for the analog output gain, have you switched it by mistake ?

More likely the DIM button ? Press it and check out.
The DIM affects the Main-out, if you assigned the main-out to the analog XLR output 1/2 then the headphone remains normal.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Thanks for the quick reply, waedi!  About the switch: no, it is correct (this would have affected the volume on the iMac too, but switching back to the iMac the same Babyface works fine..).
DIM is off too sad

4 (edited by waedi 2023-08-20 01:06:10)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

May you provide 2 screenshots ?
- Fireface USB Settings
- Totalmix (Main-out active)

from the computer where it is low level.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Of course!  Here they are:

https://i.imgur.com/Z84r5WF.png
https://i.imgur.com/9OIOC9O.png

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Everything looks good so far.
I would do a measurement recording for measure the difference.
Do a Totalmix Total Reset
Then play a short audio from the DAW to AN1/2 output
from there with XLR cables direct loopback to AN1/2 inputs
Record the audio input 1/2
Perform this on both computers.
How does the recorded file look ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Will do! in a few hours!  Something I forgot to mention here: the panning behaves in a weird way: when I pan it towards left or right it just gets even more silent but plays equally from both speakers.  But on Audio & Midi settings "stereo" is selected, and things look normal there too.. sad

https://i.imgur.com/2Ny4xvP.png
https://i.imgur.com/9OIOC9O.png

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

In the foto of Totalmix the input channels are all sending to the analog output with very high level, is there also gain open ?
Thats why I mention Total Reset.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

9 (edited by oli77sch 2023-08-20 07:47:05)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

tsouanas wrote:

Will do! in a few hours!  Something I forgot to mention here: the panning behaves in a weird way: when I pan it towards left or right it just gets even more silent but plays equally from both speakers.  But on Audio & Midi settings "stereo" is selected, and things look normal there too.. sad

To me that sounds like wrong wired or bad plugged cables. So my question: what exact cables do you use on the main out, what plug type is on the other end? What input do your speakers have?
And yes, to avoid additional noise or hiss on the main out, close all hardware input faders for the main mix.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

In the foto of Totalmix the input channels are all sending to the analog output with very high level, [...]

This was just me being desperate trying to level-up even unrelated meters in the hopes of this being some weird bug.  Normally the inputs were all down, there are no inputs connected to the Babyface at the moment.

To me that sounds like wrong wired or bad plugged cables.

Thanks for joining forces, oli77sch!  I think we can rule out this possibility, as the exact same cables work with the iMac.  I don't even have to physically move the Babyface to get it from one machine to the other, or unplug-and-replug the audio cables.  I literally only unplug its USB cable from the Mac Mini and connect it to the iMac, and it works fine.

11 (edited by oli77sch 2023-08-20 13:33:15)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

tsouanas wrote:

In the foto of Totalmix the input channels are all sending to the analog output with very high level, [...]

This was just me being desperate trying to level-up even unrelated meters in the hopes of this being some weird bug.  Normally the inputs were all down, there are no inputs connected to the Babyface at the moment.

To me that sounds like wrong wired or bad plugged cables.

Thanks for joining forces, oli77sch!  I think we can rule out this possibility, as the exact same cables work with the iMac.  I don't even have to physically move the Babyface to get it from one machine to the other, or unplug-and-replug the audio cables.  I literally only unplug its USB cable from the Mac Mini and connect it to the iMac, and it works fine.

So you switched back and forth between both your Macs with having always good results on the iMac and always bad results on the Mini? How can that be? I mean, in TotalMix all looks fine. And you know the app shows what is going within the Babyface. So normally I would assume a hardware fault which cannot be displayed in TotalMix because it happens after the DA conversion (or even outside the Babyface when bad cables or such would cause the issue).
I remember a reported similar issue where at the end a not proper plugged TRS cable was the reason, for this I asked about the cable connections before.
Maybe it would be good to double check the speaker settings in Audio-Midi-Setup. By the way, have you tried different sample rates?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

So you switched back and forth between both your Macs with having always good results on the iMac and always bad results on the Mini? How can that be?

Exactly!  This is why it is driving me crazy.  I noticed that iMac's version was lagging slightly behind (it was v4.07 instead of v4.08) so to eliminate this factor I upgraded it as well, so iMac is running the latest, v4.08 version too.
The driving-me-crazy behavior is still consistent between the two: audio output cables intact, just switch USB from Mac Mini to iMac and the volume is fine, switch back to Mac Mini the volume is too low.  Visually the meters on TotalMix look the same.

Maybe it would be good to double check the speaker settings in Audio-Midi-Setup.

Identical settings sad

By the way, have you tried different sample rates?

Yes.  All work fine (normal volume) on the iMac, all have the low-volume-problem on the Mac Mini.

The main difference I can spot between the two boxes now is that iMac is M1 while Mac Mini is M2 Pro.  Anyone here that is using the BabyFace Pro FS (v4.08) on an M2 Pro computer?

13 (edited by oli77sch 2023-08-20 15:36:44)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Do you power the interface over USB only? Or over a separate power supply? I can’t really imagine that, but to sort things out I would check if there is an issue with insufficient power delivery…
Is the connection to the speakers balanced or not? The XLR outputs on the Babyface pro are not working servo symmetrical. From the manual:
When connecting unbalanced equipment, make sure pin 3 of the XLR output is not connected. A connection to ground might cause a decreased THD (higher distortion) and increased power consumption. So now I can imagine to have slight issues on the analog part of the unit as soon the power is close to insufficient… I’m really not a specialist, so this are only my random thoughts. Possibly the power delivery on the iMac is slightly higher. I know that some electronic (audio) devices behave really weird when there’s something wrong with the power delivery. For example I have a small effect insert mixing unit which works absolutely well with the right power adapter but does the weirdest things with a wrong one or even without any power supply (I once thought it could work like a passive unit - nope).

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

That's a very good idea!  It is powered only by USB in both cases, but it is worth checking out.  I had completely forgotten that one can power the BabyFace independently, so I will look for a compatible power unit to plug it to its DC.  What mac OS reports about power (under System Information > Hardware > USB) is, again, identical on both computers:
BabyFace Pro:
Current Available (mA): 500
Current Required (mA): 100
Extra Operating Current (mA): 0

Off to find a 12V power unit now.

15 (edited by oli77sch 2023-08-20 16:30:01)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

My system tells the exact same numbers (M1 Mac mini 2020, Ventura 13.5, RME USB driver 4.08(2), Babyface pro firmware v205), regardless to phantom power on / off, mics connected or not and even independent of using a powered hub in between or not...
Have you seen my updated post above?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

16 (edited by tsouanas 2023-08-20 17:20:02)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

I plugged a 12V DC (checked that it powers the unit without a USB cable, and it does), but it makes no difference.  The volume stays very low on the Mac Mini, and normal on the iMac.
I hadn't noticed your updated msg, thanks for pointing that out.  The XLR stay balanced..  I think we can eliminate anything that is audio-cable related since the exact same configuration works fine when the USB is connected to the iMac.. no?

I cannot blame my BabyFace because it works fine on my iMac.
I cannot blame the output cables (and monitors, etc.) because they work fine when the BabyFace is connected to my iMac.
I cannot blame my Mac Mini because with its built-in audio interface and with the other USB audio interface I tested it works fine.

My conclusion so far is that there must be wrong with the way the two communicate (I suspect the driver or some driver configuration).  I re-installed the drivers and it didn't fix anything.  Since this is a brand new computer, I might make a complete wipe / reset on the Mac Mini, and reinstall everything.

I had the Security Policy to the very strict one on the Mac Mini (noticed that on my iMac at some point I had "dropped" to the more relaxed one), but according to RME the new DriverKit drivers do not need to "relax" the policy anymore.  STILL, I changed this too, just for kicks, and no difference, volume still low on my Mac Mini M2 Pro.

Another possible culprit is the display monitor, which iMac has its own built-in while for the Mac Mini I am using a USB-C-to-DiplayPort cable to... display tongue.
I'll see if I can find an HDMI cable to test this too.

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

???…
Another idea: you save your Totalmix workspace on the iMac and copy it to the Mini and load it there to have 100% the same settings.
And also if it doesn’t seem logical, I would double check all cables and connections or even switch them.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Other questions:
do the level meters on the Babyface itself show a strong signal? The same as in Totalmix app? And the same on both computers?
Did you try different USB ports on the Mini?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

19 (edited by tsouanas 2023-08-20 17:51:50)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Unbelievable!
As soon as I unplugged the display monitor (the screen) the volume cranks up to normal!!
It was connected with a USB-C-to-DP cable, and it is a DELL U2415 screen.
Notice also that the M2 Pro version has 4 thunderbolt ports (all of them behave the same way in this aspect).

At first I thought that the cable might be too greedy (it has DP 1.4 8K output).  But as soon as I plug a traditional HDMI cable the same thing happens (volume drops down).

So, for the time being, in order to have normal volume with the BabyFace, I must have no display. sad

Also: if I connect BOTH monitors the volume doesn't drop further down.  As soon as any monitor is connected, via any cable (HDMI or USB-C-to-DP), the volume just drops down A LOT and that's it.

I am still not sure as what is causing this.  I don't think it's a power issue (external power should have fixed this, right?).

Maybe some audio subsystem of the Mac Mini gets confused since HDMI and DP can also carry audio signals?  Both my screen monitors appear as audio devices on the Audio Settings, but of course they are not selected, the only one that is selected to output any actual audio is the BabyFace Pro FS...

20 (edited by oli77sch 2023-08-20 18:25:41)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

I’m simply speechless!

But a confused audio system would be visible on the level meters, no?
Maybe some interferences causing issues on the DA converter?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

21 (edited by waedi 2023-08-20 19:31:24)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Ouch !
I didn't know this, but I know Apple has lots of special audio settings in the background.
Maybe it will save your ears from suddenly getting loud music from the monitor speakers ?
One thing I can tell is Bluetooth headphone.
It has also a mic for telephone use
The mac recognize this device as headset and is loading a special setting.
Only one channel output to both sides left and right and sample rate 32kHz.
If you are working on a music programm you have to select the internal mic instead of the external mic as audio input device.
Then it works fine, outdoor song mixing no problem. This happened with Reaper.

When you plug in the monitor watch the changes going on in the Audio-Midi-Setup, it will show you.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Maybe it will save your ears from suddenly getting loud music from the monitor speakers ?

Ahhaah, I was thinking of something along those lines.
Or maybe as soon as it finds something 5.1/surround-capable it forces my main output to this mode.  The problem is that the only place I know to set this, seems correctly set to Stereo, even with the displays connected.  Come to think of it, I have no idea what *changes* as soon as I disconnect the monitors, for obvious reasons tongue

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Anybody can think of a way to test if this is a problem with my specific unit (Mac Mini M2 Pro) or if all of them have the same problem?  I cannot get my hands on a different Mac Mini M2 Pro around here to test this. sad
And I'm afraid that Apple won't consider its computer faulty since it works fine with other audio interfaces.
Could someone from RME confirm if the drivers of RME BabyFace Pro FS have been tested with a Mac Mini M2 Pro?

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Sadly no. I only can tell you, I don’t have any comparable issues with my Babyface pro on my M1 Mac mini from 2020.
Could the issue related to the newer Thunderbolt 4 port generation on the M2 Mac mini? The 2020 model has Thunderbolt 3.
I have another question: if the issue appears, is the reduced output level visible on the level meters on the Babyface (the LED light chains) and / or in Totalmix?

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

25 (edited by tsouanas 2023-08-21 13:24:17)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Could the issue related to the newer Thunderbolt 4 port generation on the M2 Mac mini?

Good catch!  Unfortunately it seems unrelated: I just tested plugging the BabyFace on the USB-A slot, and used the HDMI for my screen, so that all of the thunderbolt 4's were left intact.

I am back to thinking that the problem is power-related, because merely *touching* the HDMI plug to the screen's metal without actually plugging it (so that Mac OS doesn't know about this screen yet) has the same effect.  (Makes me think of grounding problems.  Mac Mini has 2 pins (Mac Studio has 3 (I was between these two and opted for buying this Mac Mini)).

I recorded a short video on youtube showing this:

https://youtube.com/shorts/TDgXYChbkbk

Note that: the meters on the BabyFace and the meters on TotalMix do not get affected by this, they show the same levels whether in "low volume" mode or in "normal volume" mode (I managed to see this without a screen plugged by taking a screenshot; it worked).
s'sh

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Did you try to disable audio via hdmi on your mini? Is it the same effect?

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Wondering if this happens with a headphone at the computer without the Babyface connected.
And how about using an external power supply on the Babyface ?
What about the speakers ? Are these active monitors ?
Can you plug them into another power socket ?

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Just watched the video. Oh my…
Yes, grounding problem or what do I know. Why does Apple use 2-pin power cables on the Mini??
At least you know where to start your search for a solving solution.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

29 (edited by tsouanas 2023-08-21 20:47:15)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Why does Apple use 2-pin power cables on the Mini??

One pin cheaper, I guess! tongue

I added my mixing console (Mackie 1202-VLZ3, with 3 pins wink) in the middle and the problem went away.  Still not clear on the whys and hows.  But we can conclude that it's not an RME drivers problem.  Maybe plugging the BabyFace to my mains didn't help because the BabyFace also has only 2 "pins".  I can finally start using my new setup here, although this first blow made me think that maybe I should have gone with the Mac Studio instead.  It's something you don't really see advertised in a pros/cons comparison between the two.  Mac Studio: 3 pins / Mac Mini: 2 pins.

Oh, and no wonder it was working fine on the iMac M1.  Nothing to do with M1 vs M2 Pro: the iMac has 3 pins.

Thanks everyone for giving really helpful insights here!  big_smile

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

tsouanas wrote:

Why does Apple use 2-pin power cables on the Mini??

One pin cheaper, I guess! tongue

My old Apple plugs are all 3-pin earthed plugs and connectors. The case for disconnecting earth can be made precisely because of ground loops. Some sensitive people experience electric shocks from the switching power supply when the power plug is earthed (shrug, I don't know why). Brush the metal frame of a charging iPhone against your ear.. That.

This looks/sounds like incorrect cable wiring. I'd unplug everything and start with just headphones. Then definitely try another cable.

I have three Dell displays in use, that I've used with a total of four Macs. The one time I had to solve a ground loop, with the oldest display, I had a choice - disconnect the earth of its power plug, or use proper TRS cables. You can easily guess the correct solution.

Fireface UCX, Focusrite OctoPre, Sound Devices MixPre-D, Mac Studio M2 max, macOS Sonoma

31 (edited by tsouanas 2023-08-25 23:01:33)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

Thanks for your input, gmarinov!  There is one part I do not understand with your suggestion: would this be consistent with the fact that introducing an extra equipment (my mixer), and using the exact same cables to connect my RME to the mixer solves the problem?  (The cables are XLR-to-TRS.)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

gmarinov wrote:

The case for disconnecting earth can be made precisely because of ground loops.

Lifting ground means disconnecting signal ground, not disconnecting protective earth terminal of an appliance enclosure. A Class I electrical appliance must have its chassis grounded whenever it is connected to mains power.

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A

33 (edited by gmarinov 2023-08-26 14:03:37)

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

unpluggged wrote:
gmarinov wrote:

The case for disconnecting earth can be made precisely because of ground loops.

Lifting ground means disconnecting signal ground, not disconnecting protective earth terminal of an appliance enclosure. A Class I electrical appliance must have its chassis grounded whenever it is connected to mains power.

Indeed.. and in the absence of separate signal and power ground lines in our home studios, solutions to ground loops can veer off the gospel above. Plus, there's no way to ground-lift a display monitor, that I'm aware of, and plenty of ways to introduce noise into audio path from power and data (!) rails of adjacent equipment.

Fireface UCX, Focusrite OctoPre, Sound Devices MixPre-D, Mac Studio M2 max, macOS Sonoma

Re: Volume very low on Mac Mini M2 Pro

tsouanas wrote:

Thanks for your input, gmarinov!  There is one part I do not understand with your suggestion: would this be consistent with the fact that introducing an extra equipment (my mixer), and using the exact same cables to connect my RME to the mixer solves the problem?  (The cables are XLR-to-TRS.)

Likely. It's hard to say what happens exactly when you touch the display chassis with the monitor plug - could be pulling the signal/ground in any direction, or it could just be shorting something improperly wired or reversed. Depending on the wiring of the mixer it could be normalising your audio path and taking away the problem either by being just properly wired/isolated (the least you can expect from a mixer) or by taking on the load.

To further complicate things there's more than one kind of balanced output, so really do unplug everything, start with a pair of headphones, and keep a list of everything you do and its effect, until you can isolate the piece of kit (assuming your display isn't faulty).

Also worth testing that your power sockets / extension leads are correctly wired (a cheapomatic tester costs £10 in UK). Good luck!

Fireface UCX, Focusrite OctoPre, Sound Devices MixPre-D, Mac Studio M2 max, macOS Sonoma