1 Topic by Quantizer (edited by Quantizer 2023-01-06 20:48:01)

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Topic: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

Running plugins inside Totalmix (and be able to change them with Snapshots) would be game-changing for anyone with room correction software like Sonarworks, or headphone-to-speaker emulation like Canopener or room simulations.

I'm currently using Audio Hijack to run my system audio through Sonarworks/CanOpener, and it causes latency because of how it steals system audio. Not only that, but I have to run one Sonarworks instance for my speaker profile and one for headphones — there's a fair amount of CPU overhead.

I assume RME could run FX on audio going out to the speakers/headphones without introducing additional latency (other than what the plugins require).

Many studio professionals (and probably audio enthusiasts) would buy RME just for this feature.

5-10 years ago hosting plugins was a complicated/messy process, but it really isn't that bad anymore. I can foresee a few objections:

1. It's out of scope.
With Sonarworks' and Canopener's popularity, I would re-asses that for 2023. Cubase even has a dedicated section for Monitoring Plugins, for exactly this. But Cubase's solution doesn't affect all system audio — RME is in a special position to solve this.

2. Some plugins introduce latency, and some users may be confused why their system has latency.
In this case, simply have a notice that the plugins they've added are causing x ms of latency. All your customers understand that, I believe.

3. Plugins crash.
They only really crash on first load, and you could sandbox the plugins so they don't crash Totalmix (Bitwig does this.)

The other time plugins crash is during plugin scanning, but honestly you don't even need to scan plugins, just have people choose the VST3 file and load it. No need to support VST2, AU or AAX, although you could if you want.

You could even limit/whitelist plugin loading to Sonarworks, Canopener, and select plugins of that nature, which are built for stability. This might be what I would do.

4. Building a plugin host is complicated.
Use JUCE's plugin host, it works.

Looking forward to your response.

  • mkok
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

I use sonarworks with my Babyface pro fs. I don’t have a problem. It installs a desktop version which works on YouTube or anything else that doesn’t use asio. I then use it in the control room in Cubase which bypasses the desktop version as it uses asio. Same with Wavelab. I’m quite happy how this works.

This has been asked by others and rejected a few times.

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

3 Reply by Quantizer (edited by Quantizer 2023-01-06 21:30:02)

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

mkok wrote:

I use sonarworks with my Babyface pro fs. I don’t have a problem. It installs a desktop version which works on YouTube or anything else that doesn’t use asio. I then use it in the control room in Cubase which bypasses the desktop version as it uses asio. Same with Wavelab. I’m quite happy how this works.

This has been asked by others and rejected a few times.

I understand. However,
1. the standalone still adds noticeable latency (even with zero latency mode) and IIRC switching profiles isn't very programmable (despite what they claim)
2. macOS doesn't have that bypassing functionality (no ASIO)
3. And not everyone uses Cubase like you smile

4 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2023-01-06 21:38:43)

  • waedi
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 91#p189091

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

waedi wrote:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 91#p189091

+1

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

waedi wrote:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 91#p189091

Thank you!

Tried searching first, and as always it's useless on this forum smile

7 Reply by Muffin (edited by Muffin 2023-01-06 23:04:33)

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

Quantizer wrote:
waedi wrote:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 91#p189091

Thank you!

Tried searching first, and as always it's useless on this forum smile

You can also use google to search the forum with a "site:forum.rme-audio.de mytopic"

https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2466433

More details:

https://ahrefs.com/blog/google-advanced … operators/

  • waedi
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

Muffin wrote:
Quantizer wrote:
waedi wrote:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 91#p189091

Thank you!

Tried searching first, and as always it's useless on this forum smile

You can also use google to search the forum with a "site:forum.rme-audio.de mytopic"

https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2466433

Confirm ! The search function is not satisfying.
i just did a test with the word : Totalmix
Result : Ihre Suchanfrage erzielte keine Treffer.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

Quantizer wrote:

Running plugins inside Totalmix (and be able to change them with Snapshots) would be game-changing for anyone with room correction software like Sonarworks, or headphone-to-speaker emulation like Canopener or room simulations.

But you do know, Totalmix isn't just a software on the computer, but in facts it's the DSP mixer inside the RME hardware? So I guess it really wouldn't be that simple to implement a plugin feature. RME interfaces would be a system comparable to UAD Satellite or Apollo products then.

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  • ramses
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

oli77sch wrote:
Quantizer wrote:

Running plugins inside Totalmix (and be able to change them with Snapshots) would be game-changing for anyone with room correction software like Sonarworks, or headphone-to-speaker emulation like Canopener or room simulations.

But you do know, Totalmix isn't just a software on the computer, but in facts it's the DSP mixer inside the RME hardware? So I guess it really wouldn't be that simple to implement a plugin feature. RME interfaces would be a system comparable to UAD Satellite or Apollo products then.

You do not need to speculate, read this, it was already quoted in this thread, thanks.
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 91#p189091

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

ramses wrote:
oli77sch wrote:
Quantizer wrote:

Running plugins inside Totalmix (and be able to change them with Snapshots) would be game-changing for anyone with room correction software like Sonarworks, or headphone-to-speaker emulation like Canopener or room simulations.

But you do know, Totalmix isn't just a software on the computer, but in facts it's the DSP mixer inside the RME hardware? So I guess it really wouldn't be that simple to implement a plugin feature. RME interfaces would be a system comparable to UAD Satellite or Apollo products then.

You do not need to speculate, read this, it was already quoted in this thread, thanks.
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 91#p189091

My reply was meant as an addition because many RME users don’t know, Totalmix isn’t just a piece of software.

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

oli77sch wrote:
ramses wrote:
oli77sch wrote:

But you do know, Totalmix isn't just a software on the computer, but in facts it's the DSP mixer inside the RME hardware? So I guess it really wouldn't be that simple to implement a plugin feature. RME interfaces would be a system comparable to UAD Satellite or Apollo products then.

You do not need to speculate, read this, it was already quoted in this thread, thanks.
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 91#p189091

My reply was meant as an addition because many RME users don’t know, Totalmix isn’t just a piece of software.

Yeah, TotalMix FX GUI is essentially a GUI frontend to set parameters for software running on RME interfaces as well as reading data computed on those (like RMS). Not quite that simple, but MC can correct the record.

  • ramses
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

If you need plugins, you can get 3rd party solutions like LiveProfessor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ95oc6zO3w&t=696s

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

ramses wrote:

If you need plugins, you can get 3rd party solutions like LiveProfessor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ95oc6zO3w&t=696s

BTW, with Babyface pro (FS) it's possible to use plugins on a DAW or plugin host instead of the integrated TM FX, at least on Mac (I don't have a Windows machine to check out). The hidden channels which are normally used so send and return the signals to the computer's CPU to process the TM FX (Babyface pro cannot process it on internal DSP) can be used like this:
- in the DAW, create a stereo track with inputs 13-14 and outputs 13-14 (of course selected hardware is Babyface pro)
- enable software monitoring
- load for example a reverb plugin, set it to 100% wet!
- in Totalmix, use the FX send and return faders as usual, but let disabled the internal reverb and echo fx
It's also possible to record a mix from different hardware inputs and software channels on a stereo track in the DAW or audio editor using channels 13-14 as inputs. All channels with opened FX sends will be sent to this mix.
It's only possible with the Babyface pro (FS), all other interfaces having TM FX (UFX, UCX...) don't have this hidden channels.

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Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

15 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-01-07 12:40:32)

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

Hi Oli77sch, please help me, I do not fully understand the intention of your posting ;-)

Maybe nice "gimmick", but I wonder in which situation exactly one would really have advantages from it, or whether one should not better go the usual ways.

You wrote that the other recording interfaces have no hidden channels. It sounds as if you see this as an advantage for the BBF Pro and a disadvantage for the other devices. Or did I misunderstand you? Please be so kind and clarify.

I would rather say that these hidden channels are only required for the BBF Pro because not all FX can be covered by the internal FPGA. Reverb and dynamic FX have to be calculated by the computer's CPU and those hidden channels are the pipeline in between, that you want to use for other purposes.

All other recording interfaces either have a complete FPGA for FX that can be used without latency over USB or,
these use cases can be covered by the usual TotalMix FX features: routing and loopback.

Case 1: FX 100% wet. You could also send from the DAW to a free output and feed the SW playback channel to any submix as you wish.

Case 2: that would be the classic for loopback recording, routing any HW inputs and SW playbacks to an unused output, activating loopback and recording the submix.

In this respect, I think that the other recording interfaces are not missing anything, but maybe I misinterpreted your posting.

As far as the BBF Pro is concerned, I don't know if this type of signal routing offers any advantages. Possibly, rather the opposite because you are blocking these hidden channels that are reserved for the RME FX.

Or where do you see the advantage of using the hidden channels on the Babyface Pro [FS] for other purposes instead of using the standard capabilities of TM FX (routing / loopback recording)?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

16 Reply by oli77sch (edited by oli77sch 2023-01-07 13:43:01)

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

ramses wrote:

Hi Oli77sch, please help me, I do not fully understand the intention of your posting ;-)

Maybe nice "gimmick", but I wonder in which situation exactly one would really have advantages from it, or whether one should not better go the usual ways.

Hi ramses! Exactly this, nice to have but of course the usual ways in many cases make more sense.

ramses wrote:

You wrote that the other recording interfaces have no hidden channels. It sounds as if you see this as an advantage for the BBF Pro and a disadvantage for the other devices. Or did I misunderstand you? Please be so kind and clarify.

Not meant like this. It’s not about dis-/advantages. But isn’t it nice to know for Babyface pro users? I heard several times about users not being happy with the sound quality of the integrated effects. At least Babyface pro owners can replace the effects but still use Totalmix in the known manner (send/return faders). Owners of Fireface series units can use other methods as you describe.

ramses wrote:

I would rather say that these hidden channels are only required for the BBF Pro because not all FX can be covered by the internal FPGA. Reverb and dynamic FX have to be calculated by the computer's CPU and those hidden channels are the pipeline in between, that you want to use for other purposes.

Yes, I know that and already wrote that before:

oli77sch wrote:

The hidden channels which are normally used so send and return the signals to the computer's CPU to process the TM FX (Babyface pro cannot process it on internal DSP) can be used like this:

ramses wrote:

All other recording interfaces either have a complete FPGA for FX that can be used without latency over USB or,
these use cases can be covered by the usual TotalMix FX features: routing and loopback.

Case 1: FX 100% wet. You could also send from the DAW to a free output and feed the SW playback channel to any submix as you wish.

Sure, but using 'my way' you can use the small FX send and return faders as you would do for the internal effects. So no workflow changings there.

ramses wrote:

Case 2: that would be the classic for loopback recording, routing any HW inputs and SW playbacks to an unused output, activating loopback and recording the submix.

Of course, but isn’t it good to know to have another possibility? Let’s say I have all the hardware inputs in use, four analog inputs and all the ADAT inputs too. If I want it for whatever reason, I create an additional stereo track in the DAW and can record a whole mix at the same time as the single channels simply by using (opening) the FX send faders. For example to have an instant rough mix of a drum recording.

ramses wrote:

In this respect, I think that the other recording interfaces are not missing anything, but maybe I misinterpreted your posting.

Not meant like this, nothing missed on other interfaces.

ramses wrote:

As far as the BBF Pro is concerned, I don't know if this type of signal routing offers any advantages. Possibly, rather the opposite because you are blocking these hidden channels that are reserved for the RME FX.

Nothing blocked, only used different.

ramses wrote:

Or where do you see the advantage of using the hidden channels on the Babyface Pro [FS] for other purposes instead of using the standard capabilities of TM FX (routing / loopback recording)?

See above.
Maybe now it’s me misunderstanding you, but it seems to me I wrote something stupid in your eyes. I already posted something similar on FB in a RME user group. There were some positive reactions about it. In my opinion there is nothing wrong about knowing features used in an unusual way. If I go to build a very handy iPad stand using LEGO bricks, would you say 'hey man, stop that please, it’s meant for children to build a fantasy house to play with'?
Writing all this with my huge respect, well knowing you are a long time member in this forum with a big knowledge and being very helpful.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
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17 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-01-07 15:40:54)

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

Maybe now it’s me misunderstanding you, but it seems to me I wrote something stupid in your eyes.

No, absolutely not, no worries. I do not regard it as stupid, I only wanted to understand it.
I was also curious because it's new to me that something like this is possible.

I already posted something similar on FB in a RME user group. There were some positive reactions about it. In my opinion there is nothing wrong about knowing features used in an unusual way.

I was only thinking about what the benefit could be, or whether it simply could confuse users or could have any disadvantages.

Writing all this with my huge respect, well knowing you are a long time member in this forum with a big knowledge and being very helpful.

Thanks for the flowers. But even though I invest a lot of time in this forum, there is no reason to ignore such posts or consider them stupid. So, you can learn something new here and there again.

I wanted to understand it properly first to think about it further. Even for me, who has been using TotalMix FX intensively for a long time, it was a challenge to understand it completely and compare it with "normal operation" (advantages/disadvantages/handling).

After thinking about it further, it might have these benefits:
- You can use any other reverb or dynamic effect on your DAW, as you just mentioned
- if you do, you don't have to sacrifice any of the other outputs/SW playback channels for it
- I was surprised that the BBF Pro doesn't have a loopback on the main out, my UFX+ does, so maybe this could fill that small gap.

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

No, absolutely not, no worries. I do not regard it as stupid, I only wanted to understand it.
I was also curious because it's new to me that something like this is possible.

Glad to hear that, sorry, I think I was a bit overreacting...
One important thing: I was wrong (reply to other thread) saying there is no loopback on 'Main' when using a Babyface pro. I probably was too tired yesterday, watching at the TotalMix window and: 'oh, there is no loopback button', not realizing the toolbox was closed and I only looked the area with 'Dim' ... 'Assign' on the right.

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  • vinark
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

To bad not available on windows, the hidden channels

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

vinark wrote:

To bad not available on windows, the hidden channels

Are you sure? The channels are needed also on a Windows computer …?

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  • vinark
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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

Well sure is so absolute, I would love to be wrong. In cubase I see 4 analog channels and 8 adat, so 12 in total.
Maybe @MC can comment if it would be possible to add that for windows if it is not already there?
I would love to use another reverb, this way. Of course I can also do that now already in different ways.

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Re: [Request!] Plugins inside Totalmix

vinark wrote:

Well sure is so absolute, I would love to be wrong. In cubase I see 4 analog channels and 8 adat, so 12 in total.
Maybe @MC can comment if it would be possible to add that for windows if it is not already there?
I would love to use another reverb, this way. Of course I can also do that now already in different ways.

Ok, so it seems to be related to the differences between core audio on macOS and WDM and ASIO on Windows.

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