1 Topic by Gene (edited by Gene 2023-12-29 13:42:23)

  • Gene
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Topic: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Hello,

I recently became the proud owner of an ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition and am absolutely delighted with the quality. What surprises me, however, is that I have to lower the level to approx. -60 dB in order to achieve a normal volume (room volume without disturbing the neighbours). That seems to me to be a bit much level reduction.

Now I'm wondering why this is and whether it's normal to have to reduce the input level so much. What I have noticed in any case is the high input signal that I can see in the horizontal level metre. With some songs (mp3, flac) ovr is often displayed. For most songs, the input level is only slightly below 0 dB. Could this be the reason? Or is it due to the ALSA settings in audacious, the settings in the ADI-2 Pro or are the studio monitors Genelecs 8230 simply too sensitive? With headphones (AKG K-371) I have to reduce the signal by approx. 30 dB to be able to listen at normal volume.

Does anyone have any ideas or comments? I would be delighted.

Regards

Gene

  • ramses
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

What you have is a so-called "level mismatch" because your amp or active monitor is most likely very powerful.

You need to correct this using a switchable attenuator with dampening of around -30 dB.

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=25399

And before you ask: RME explained in the forum no worries, it doesn't make the sound worse in any way.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

I’m using my ADI2-Pro with Genelec 8331. Do you not have the GLM software for the Genelec’s?  I trim the level back on the 8331s within GLM to compensate and have calibrated my room at a working SPL of 76dBa with the ADI at -20. This works for all of my ProTools sessions once it’s setup, and 20dB headroom is more than enough to turn up as needed. Heck, our SSL consoles are calibrated for -30 on the console.

Let me know if I can help you any further… the combination works well for me.

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Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Re: ADI metering, remember that most current music mastering PUSHES the level to just under clipping, so the meter may show overs depending on what RME uses as their threshold. I wouldn’t worry about that… just get the sensitivity of the Genies dropped.

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Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
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5 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2023-12-29 08:55:17)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Quote from Genelec’s manual page 3:

…Although the 8331A can be used without the GLM software and control network, it can only reach its full potential when set up and calibrated using GLM software, running on a Mac or PC.…

KaiS's Website

6 Reply by joachim.herbert (edited by joachim.herbert 2023-12-29 10:55:57)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Lower Input sensivity of the Genelecs. You are probably at -6. https://support.genelec.com/hc/en-us/ar … -speakers-

  • Gene
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Thank you for your helpful answers, tips and links.  It seems I didn't use the right English search terms to find the solution myself. roll

What I had forgotten to mention: I use Linux privately, on which the GLM software does not run. However, I had calibrated the Genelecs 8320 via my business laptop with Windows and saved the settings directly in the monitors.

You need to correct this using a switchable attenuator with dampening of around -30 dB.

This morning I reconnected the GLM kit and set the startup level to -30 dB. When I turn up the level to listen louder, the Ref Level changes from +4 dBu to +13 dBu at a threshold of -20 dB, at which point there is a short click in the DAC.

I trim the level back on the 8331s within GLM to compensate and have calibrated my room at a working SPL of 76dBa with the ADI at -20. This works for all of my ProTools sessions once it’s setup, and 20dB headroom is more than enough to turn up as needed.

If I select a startup level of -20 dB, the Ref Level does not change at first, of course, as there is enough headroom. However, the normal volume (in order to listen comfortably and without annoying the neighbors) is then around -40 dB, which still seems a lot to me.

Which setting would you recommend? Should I use -40 dB as the normal level and not worry about it because it doesn't make the sound worse? Or should I set the startup level to -30 dB and deactivate the ref level so that it doesn't click at -20 dB?

  • Registered: 2023-06-30
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Gene wrote:

I had calibrated the Genelecs 8320 via my business laptop with Windows and saved the settings directly in the monitors.

If you have Genelec SAM monitors, why not connect the monitors over digital (AES) interface in the first place?

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A
  • From: San Diego, CA
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Gene wrote:

Thank you for your helpful answers, tips and links.  It seems I didn't use the right English search terms to find the solution myself. roll

What I had forgotten to mention: I use Linux privately, on which the GLM software does not run. However, I had calibrated the Genelecs 8320 via my business laptop with Windows and saved the settings directly in the monitors.

You need to correct this using a switchable attenuator with dampening of around -30 dB.

This morning I reconnected the GLM kit and set the startup level to -30 dB. When I turn up the level to listen louder, the Ref Level changes from +4 dBu to +13 dBu at a threshold of -20 dB, at which point there is a short click in the DAC.

I trim the level back on the 8331s within GLM to compensate and have calibrated my room at a working SPL of 76dBa with the ADI at -20. This works for all of my ProTools sessions once it’s setup, and 20dB headroom is more than enough to turn up as needed.

If I select a startup level of -20 dB, the Ref Level does not change at first, of course, as there is enough headroom. However, the normal volume (in order to listen comfortably and without annoying the neighbors) is then around -40 dB, which still seems a lot to me.

Which setting would you recommend? Should I use -40 dB as the normal level and not worry about it because it doesn't make the sound worse? Or should I set the startup level to -30 dB and deactivate the ref level so that it doesn't click at -20 dB?

I would set the startup level in SAM to whatever it needs to be where you are comfortable with the ADI-2 level. If -40 in SAM works, then set it there.  The other thing is I'm not using "Auto Ref Level" on the ADI-2, but have the output set to +4 which also helps (did you say that already).  Regardless, once you've got SAM connected just drop its level until it's comfortable and keep some headroom on the ADI-2, making sure to SAVE everything to the Genelecs.

Good luck!!

_____________________
Eric Seaberg • San Diego, CA • USA
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  • Gene
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

unpluggged wrote:

If you have Genelec SAM monitors, why not connect the monitors over digital (AES) interface in the first place?

What is the advantage of connecting the Genelec SAM monitors via a digital (AES) interface?

I can't avoid saving the calibration and the startup level in the monitors, as I mainly use Linux (no support for GLM software) and only Windows for work.

ericseaberg wrote:

Thanks Eric for your words.

I would set the startup level in SAM to whatever it needs to be where you are comfortable with the ADI-2 level. If -40 in SAM works, then set it there.  The other thing is I'm not using "Auto Ref Level" on the ADI-2, but have the output set to +4 which also helps (did you say that already).  Regardless, once you've got SAM connected just drop its level until it's comfortable and keep some headroom on the ADI-2, making sure to SAVE everything to the Genelecs.

Good luck!!

If I select -20 dB as the startup level and deactivate "Auto Ref Level" and also set the output to +4, then this is the setting that is comfortable for me and works for the time now. wink


In any case, you have all helped me with your answers. Thank you very much!

11 Reply by unpluggged (edited by unpluggged 2023-12-29 18:19:36)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Gene wrote:
unpluggged wrote:

If you have Genelec SAM monitors, why not connect the monitors over digital (AES) interface in the first place?

What is the advantage of connecting the Genelec SAM monitors via a digital (AES) interface?

The advantage is that you avoid two unnecessary DA and AD conversions of your signal and in addition to that you will not have to worry about optimizing analog levels. Just set your desired maximum output level with GLM once and use the ADI-2 Pro to control your volume in digital domain.

EDIT - Correction: it turns out that in contrast to larger Genelec 8000-series SAM monitors, the 8320 don't have digital inputs. Too bad.

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A
  • Gene
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

unpluggged wrote:

The advantage is that you avoid two unnecessary DA and AD conversions of your signal and in addition to that you will not have to worry about optimizing analog levels. Just set your desired maximum output level with GLM once and use the ADI-2 Pro to control your volume in digital domain.

EDIT - Correction: it turns out that in contrast to larger Genelec 8000-series SAM monitors, the 8320 don't have digital inputs. Too bad.

Thanks for the explanation!

I had also wondered how I could connect the Genelecs, as they only have analog XLR. What a pity. But the 8320 were a spontaneous purchase as I was able to buy them new for €400 a piece. If I had focused on digital inputs and known the advantages beforehand, I might have looked around for the 8330.

13 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2023-12-30 00:51:06)

  • KaiS
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Lot’s of back and forth here, on a simple issue:

ADI-2 DAC has a clever feature that takes care for best signal quality over the typical volume dial range: Auto Ref Level.

It should absolutely be used in your configuration.

The faint clicks you here when ADI-2 changes Ref Level are normal, technically unavoidable, and practically no problem.
You don’t constantly dial your volume up and down.
ADI-2 uses hardware relay switching of Ref Level in the analog domain to optimize DAC’s SNR and resolution.


Set:
• SETUP / Settings /Auto Ref Level: On
• Set ADI-2’d Volume to -20 dBr and play some typical music
• Set main monitor’s sensitivity control (“Startup Level”) to achieve your “normal” listening level.
According to your postings “Startup Level” would be about -40 dB.

This setting optimizes Genelec’s ADC’s, DSP’s and DAC’s SNR and resolution too.


Digital interfacing wouldn’t get you much further sound-wise.
It would even incorporate some limitations: max. sample rate of the Genelecs e.g. is lower than ADI-2’s.

So don’t worry about it.

KaiS's Website

  • Gene
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Thanks KaiS for your explanation.

On the last day of the year, I took the time this morning to correct the settings again and proceeded as you described.

My "normal" listening level is pretty much exactly -20 dB with a "startup level" of -40 dB. This is exactly the threshold at which the relay switches to +13 dBu. Of course, I don't change the volume all the time. But when I want to fine-tune the volume depending on the song (i.e. around the -20 dB: -19.5 dB, -19 dB or -21 dB, etc.), I constantly hear the faint click. I find that annoying.

Maybe a startup level of -40 dB isn't the right value for me yet and I need to keep trying.

But regardless of that, I find it exciting that there is no clicking when switching from +19 dbU to +24 dBu. Well, that only happens at -4.5 dB and that is already extremely loud. But why is there no click here?


KaiS wrote:

This setting optimizes Genelec’s ADC’s, DSP’s and DAC’s SNR and resolution too.

Can you please explain this in more detail? In particular "optimized Genelec's ADC's, DSP's"? I would be very interested in this, as I'm not technically that deep into the matter. You can also send me a private message if this is beyond the scope here.

Thank you very much!

Gene

15 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2023-12-31 23:45:16)

  • KaiS
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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Gene wrote:
KaiS wrote:

This setting optimizes Genelec’s ADC’s, DSP’s and DAC’s SNR and resolution too.

Can you please explain this in more detail? In particular "optimized Genelec's ADC's, DSP's"? I would be very interested in this, as I'm not technically that deep into the matter. You can also send me a private message if this is beyond the scope here.

Thank you very much!

Gene

The higher a converter is driven, the more bit-depth or bit-resolution, and - of course, the better Signal to Noise Ratio is achieved.

If a 24 bit AD- or DA-Concerter is driven at -60 dB, it just has a resolution of 14 bit.
That‘s 12 dB less than CD-format.
This is NOT unusable, or sounding totally bad, but you paid for more smile


The Genelecs have ADCs at their inputs, an internal DSP for all the processing options, and DAC‘s that drive their power amp stages for woofer and tweeter.
These all work better with reasonable level.

KaiS's Website

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Re: ADI-2 Pro: -60 db required for normal volume

Thanks for the helpful explanation, KaiS!