Topic: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

An excerpt from the ADI-2 Pro FS R manual at page 16,  8.6 SRC (Sample Rate Conversion):

"A SRC can also be used to upsample audio. A 44.1 kHz source can be converted to 192 kHz in real-time and thus played back with the DAC set to 192 kHz. The usefulness of this process is questionable. There is zero content added, so the exact same audio is played back. The only change is that the DAC's oversampling filters are moved far out of the audible range. But even at 44.1 kHz the ADI-2 Pro’s filters are inaudibly high, and the process of sample rate conversion also uses those lower filters during its first conversion process."

I smiled when I read the phrase "The usefulness of this process is questionable". I also wonder myself about the benefits of upsampling a  44.1 kHz stream to 192 kHz or upper frequencies. As a home user Hi-Fi, I use Roon and sometimes daisy chained to HQPlayer Embedded.

I don't upsample PCM streams from Roon (local FLAC, Qobuz and/or Tidal). I either use source PCM frequency or convert from PCM to DSD (at Roon itself or with HQPlayer Embedded). Even I wonder if there is any real benefit (or uselfulness) from this conversion stage, specially if the DAC has not a DSD direct mode before going into the analog domain. ADI-2 DAC itself can run or not in DSD direct mode depending on the implemented DAC chip (AKM or ESS).

It's awesome how can this subject be approached depending on the point of view of home user Hi-Fi or a pro user.

The older I become the more skeptical I become on audio "magic" solutions.

For the record: I agree with the sentence  "The usefulness of this process is questionable" and at the same time I wonder if this setence is extensible to the PCM to DSD (128, 256, 512, 1024...) conversions.

2 (edited by ramses 2024-01-17 17:50:23)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

Upsampling doesn't create a better quality, the quality is determined by the original sample rate of the source.

Besides that, upsampling from single to double speed can solve issues if you feel limited by the treble roll-off of certain D/A filters, see the D/A filter frequency curves in the ADI-2 * manuals.
By this, you move the treble roll-off to frequencies much over 20 kHz, which exceeds our hearing capabilities.

I would only do it if I hear a difference. I do not feel limited by the SD-Slow filter, so I do not care much about it.
With NOS, the treble roll-off is easier noticeable.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

3 (edited by KaiS 2024-01-17 19:49:39)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

The SRC chips inside the ADI-2 Pro and ADI-2/4 Pro SE are great as problem solver to connect sample-rate-asynchronous sources.

That‘s their main purpose.

Sound-wise it just replaces the DAC’s reconstruction filter with the one inside the SRC, if it is used for upsampling.

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

Upsampling has its place if upsampled signal is further processed by nonlinear effect. For pure playing it could be advantegous if nonoptimal DA converter is used. As Ramses already mentioned. DA converter with poor output lowpass filter would benefit from upscaled signal.

But it is not case of RME D/A. So, possitive effect of upscaling is rather quetionable. I guess, RME has added it there to please HiFi customers, not because they would see any real benefit in it....

But if someone hears the difference and upscaling sounds bettter to him. Why not to use it.

5 (edited by ramses 2024-01-17 21:14:41)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

No not non-optimal DA converter, this is not what I meant.

It seems to be a basic characteristic of certain D/A filters to attenuate frequencies in the high-frequency range at single speed, if you look at the D/A filter curves of the (quite) high-quality AKM converters. And I think this is the case for e.g. all Slow and NOS filters not only for the filter offered by those AKM chips.

An alternative to this, which MC (Matthias Carstens) pointed out already some time ago, is a frequency correction using PEQ for such D/A filters to compensate that.

Upsampling might be more accurate, not sure whether the PEQ correction is as precise, sorry, I really don't know.

All in all, I take a relaxed view on this
One way or another you get excellent quality. Most likely you get more differences to the source material by not placing your headphones properly or having too soft foam or a not defined seat on your head and differences of headphones in general.
Similar for active monitors and topics like Room treatment or not sitting exactly at the sweet spot.
I think this all gives more variance and deviations compared to single vs double speed or vs different D/A filters.

Simply my personal gut feeling and simply being impressed by the products that I use. Over the years I became more and more relaxed, it sounds great, so why should I worry or try to compensate for problems that do not exist.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

6 (edited by KaiS 2024-01-17 21:25:48)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

Kubrak wrote:

…I guess, RME has added it there to please HiFi customers, not because they would see any real benefit in it....

The “Pro”-series ADI’s are primarily made for studio use (which doesn’t exclude private), and here the option of having an asynchronous sample rate input can be a life-saver:

E.g. to digitally connect a player device without wordclock input there’s no other option.


The other point:
Quality nonlinear digital effects typically have their own oversampling built in.
Only in the early times of digital this wasn’t possible or ignored for various reasons.

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

The guy has asked about oversampling. Changing the sampling frequency because one needs it because of reason is another question.

And I made a mistake, I thought OP speaks about ADI-2 DAC which is IMHO targeted, beside to Pros, also to HiFi market.

Yes current effects do have oversampling (or should have), but who knows how good and it consumes CPU. So, it might help oversample beforehand. And one may have old HW, which may or may not have internal oversampling. Who knows....

@ramses
OK I put it another way. Oversampling may reduce problems or ´problems´ with output lowpass filter in D/A. I do not have ADI-2 Pro, but I strongly doubt I would be able to hear differences between different output filters or effect of oversampling. But I am neither sound engineer, nor hifiist. And I accept, that there are folks who do hear the difference.

8 (edited by ramses 2024-01-17 22:27:11)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

I got my 1st ADI-2 Pro after the purchase of an Accuphase E-600 Class A integrated amp with Accuphases own DAC module.
This way I was able to make A/B tests with only a little switching lag.
My HiFi speakers work precise so it supported comparisons well.

The ADI-2 Pro with NOS D/A filter sounded very similar to Accuphase's DAC module.
Between NOS and other D/A filter it was easy to distinguish for me.

But I am fine, I am not worried in any way to miss something. At the end all sound great.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

9 (edited by KaiS 2024-01-18 00:02:29)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

Kubrak wrote:

And I made a mistake, I thought OP speaks about ADI-2 DAC which is IMHO targeted, beside to Pros, also to HiFi market.

ADI-2 DAC doesn’t have an SRC / Upsampling option.
The Pro’s have.

Kubrak wrote:

Yes current effects do have oversampling (or should have), but who knows how good and it consumes CPU. So, it might help oversample beforehand. And one may have old HW, which may or may not have internal oversampling. Who knows....

CPU-load is a non-issue these days.
With current multi-processor CPU’s I can have loads of plugins and hardly see a CPU-load at all - running projects with way beyond 100 audio tracks.

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

But still, very old HW, old plugins, one develops plugin, but does not want to fiddle with oversampling at beginning... One runs HW with limited CPU capabilities.

And yes, it is possible to have powerfull computer, but many do not have it.... There are constant complaints about dropouts on Native Instruments forum.....

But you are probably right that person who has ADI-2 Pro has also good computer. But still, I am able to fully load 8C/16T AMD Ryzen 7 (4+ GHz) with just 16 synth patches. It is not that difficult to run out of CPU....

I am aware, one could have 100+ core workstation with up to 1 TB of RAM. But it is not common, it is just possible.

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

The question asked at the beginning was not specifically addressed or related to RME hardware but as a generic question, although the question arised while reading the ADI-2 Pro manual.

As stated by de ADI-2 pro manual itself and most of you, as a side effect, the oversampling filters are moved to higher frequencies.

To be clear, I am not thinking of a scenerio where there is a real need of upsampling/converting PCM to DSD, but from the point of view of an (Hi-Fi) user that is in the quest of a better sound. As stated @ramses in the first response: "Upsampling doesn't create a better quality, the quality is determined by the original sample rate of the source."  That, I fully agree.

In regard to the PCM to DSD re-coding, is there another benefit other than the same side effect as the PCM upsampling?

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

acatala wrote:

As stated by de ADI-2 pro manual itself and most of you, as a side effect, the oversampling filters are moved to higher frequencies.

That’s not entirely true, as the upsampling process needs anti-aliasing-filters the same way like a DA-converter.
That is 1/2 the frequency of the original sampling rate.


If one’s heading for the best qualitiy, off-line (opposed to real time) resampling’s has an advantage:

Filters with much higher filter coefficients can be used, as there is no limitation in processing time.

“Longer” filters improve audio quality by something amount, but can’t completely remove their side-effects, as frequency response, phase, and impulse response is still connected physically.

And no upsampling process can bring back what has been cut away in the first place.


I’d agree with you, upsampling just for listening typically is not worth the effort.
Specially in the light that ADI-2 has a selection of the DA-filters to choose from, where are you can find one that sounds good to you.

13 (edited by ramses 2024-01-18 15:57:23)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

KaiS wrote:
acatala wrote:

As stated by de ADI-2 pro manual itself and most of you, as a side effect, the oversampling filters are moved to higher frequencies.

That’s not entirely true, as the upsampling process needs anti-aliasing-filters the same way like a DA-converter.
That is 1/2 the frequency of the original sampling rate.


If one’s heading for the best qualitiy, off-line (opposed to real time) resampling’s has an advantage:

Filters with much higher filter coefficients can be used, as there is no limitation in processing time.

“Longer” filters improve audio quality by something amount, but can’t completely remove their side-effects, as frequency response, phase, and impulse response is still connected physically.

And no upsampling process can bring back what has been cut away in the first place.


I’d agree with you, upsampling just for listening typically is not worth the effort.
Specially in the light that ADI-2 has a selection of the DA-filters to choose from, where are you can find one that sounds good to you.

Thanks for the info KaiS, didn't know about that.

Can you pls name a product which has "Filters with much higher filter coefficients"?
I do not intend to buy it as I do not need it, but I would be interested in what products could perform this better.
Many thanks.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

14 (edited by KaiS 2024-01-18 18:09:30)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

ramses wrote:

Can you pls name a product which has "Filters with much higher filter coefficients"?
I do not intend to buy it as I do not need it, but I would be interested in what products could perform this better.

I‘m not sure about it‘s design, but Voxengo R8brain offline SRC has an excellent audio quality and comes in a free version:

https://www.voxengo.com/product/r8brain/features/

I use it e.g. for tiny adjustments of sample rates of cameras and audio recorder after on-location video-shots, to precisely sync them.
Perfect for situations where it’s not possible to use SMPTE and/or Workclock sync.

Never heard any difference between original and resampled version in this application.

I found it when reading a comparison - which included compressive measurements - between multiple SRCs, it was found top notch, with no artifacts at all.


For daily use in the studio my DAW (Sequoia) has highest quality offline SRC built in, but for the special purpose above R8brain is easier to use, as it‘s fully parametric.
Like my DAW R8brain includes batch processing, so it can do a lot of individual files in one run.

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

Thanks, Kai, for taking the time, as always very interesting.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

KaiS wrote:

And no upsampling process can bring back what has been cut away in the first place.

I’d agree with you, upsampling just for listening typically is not worth the effort.
Specially in the light that ADI-2 has a selection of the DA-filters to choose from, where are you can find one that sounds good to you.

Thanks for your answer, KaiS.

What about re-coding (I don't know if this is the appropriate term) from PCM to DSDx (x the higher the better :-) ) just for improving the listening experience?

17 (edited by KaiS 2024-01-18 18:17:22)

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

acatala wrote:

What about re-coding (I don't know if this is the appropriate term) from PCM to DSDx (x the higher the better :-) ) just for improving the listening experience?

Re-coding from PCM to DSD is another destructive process, and again no extra audio-information or quality is regained.

Only that DSD has a lot of limitations in handling.
It was meant to be an end-user delivery format, not practical for studio production.
You can‘t edit it, not even change volume.
Therefore few real DSD productions exist.

ADI-2 has to deal with the same limitations, read the DSD chapters in the manuals.

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

Thanks KaiS!!

read the DSD chapters in the manuals

... I already have. Actually, I have read the manual cover to cover. smile

19

Re: Is upsample really useful for Hi-Fi and/or pro users?

acatala wrote:

Thanks KaiS!!

read the DSD chapters in the manuals

... I already have. Actually, I have read the manual cover to cover. smile

acatala wrote:

As stated by de ADI-2 pro manual itself and most of you, as a side effect, the oversampling filters are moved to higher frequencies.

And missed this info, quote: But even at 44.1 kHz the ADI-2 Pro’s filters are inaudibly high, and the process of sample rate conversion also uses those lower filters during its first conversion process."

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME