• Registered: 2024-01-11
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Topic: UFX III usb disconnection problem

Hi all,

I bought a UFX III last year and i'm very happy with it so far for the most part.

However, recently it has been doing the following - every time i boot up my windows PC it's connected to, windows does not see it unless I unplug the USB3 cable from the back of the UFX III and plug it back in again. I've also been getting intermittent playback dropouts (although at the moment i'm not sure if that's an issue with the UFX III or Pro tools as I don't see metering drop out in pro tools or the RME/totalmix.)

I'm running windows 10 and using USB3. I've tried changing the USB3 port it's plugged in to on my PC and it makes no difference. I haven't tried a different USB3 cable yet as I don't have a spare one but i'm using the cable that came with my UFX (and it would seem odd that a stationary plugged in relatively new cable would break.)

Any ideas? It's getting super annoying as my UFX III is racked up and I have to go behind my rack every time I power up to unplug and replug the USB cable.

  • Registered: 2024-01-11
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

I'm guessing this forum is not very active. Still having the issue, getting very frustrating

3 Reply by MC

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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

Does it help to set the Interface Mode (at the unit's display) to USB3 instead of Auto?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2024-01-11
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

It's already set to USB3 on the interface. I've tried every USB3 port on my PC, and tried disconnecting all other USB devices and it's still the same. I have to unplug and plug back in the USB cable every time I boot up. Sometimes I have to do this multiple times before it will work.

The dropouts I've concluded are 100% the interface and not pro tools - I learned about the USB error reporting in the MADIface driver software and I can see i'm getting a whole multitude of errors. It also happens outside of pro tools - basically anything where i'm playing audio, I get dropouts. Doesn't matter what my CPU load is either (and in a heavy mix session I'm only ever hitting about 20-30% CPU usage in pro tools.)

I learned about using latencymon and autoruns and I've fiddled about with those a bit - latencymon reports that I'm getting quite heavy latency. However, I don't really know what I'm looking for, and to be completely honest, I shouldn't have to be doing this level of troubleshooting that requires quite deep computer knowledge when I've dropped £1600 on an audio interface.

I've never had issues like this with any other interface - granted they were all USB2 and lower I/O count, but still. This is getting increasingly frustrating and causing me no end of headaches with recording sessions and leaves a bad impression with clients. Again, not what I paid £1600 for. I paid for something that should just work. RME have a reputation as being one of the best out there, but this isn't my experience so far.

I've read about a particular USB3 PCI card that some people have had success with when they faced similar dropout issues, but it's expensive and I don't really feel I should have to have another expense after buying what should be a top level audio interface.

FWIW my computer specs are:

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770 CPU @ 3.40GHz   3.40 GHz
32GB ram
ASUS Z87k motherboard

I'm running the UFXIII with a SSL alphalink over madi and a focusrite liquid saffire 56 over optical - dropouts happen with those expansion units turned off though.

I'm reaching the point where I would just consider this a faulty product and will start looking at other options soon if there isn't a fix for this.

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-09 09:56:47)

  • ramses
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

bunkhousestudios wrote:

It's already set to USB3 on the interface. I've tried every USB3 port on my PC, and tried disconnecting all other USB devices and it's still the same. I have to unplug and plug back in the USB cable every time I boot up. Sometimes I have to do this multiple times before it will work.

The dropouts I've concluded are 100% the interface and not pro tools - I learned about the USB error reporting in the MADIface driver software and I can see i'm getting a whole multitude of errors. It also happens outside of pro tools - basically anything where i'm playing audio, I get dropouts. Doesn't matter what my CPU load is either (and in a heavy mix session I'm only ever hitting about 20-30% CPU usage in pro tools.)

I learned about using latencymon and autoruns and I've fiddled about with those a bit - latencymon reports that I'm getting quite heavy latency. However, I don't really know what I'm looking for, and to be completely honest, I shouldn't have to be doing this level of troubleshooting that requires quite deep computer knowledge when I've dropped £1600 on an audio interface.

I've never had issues like this with any other interface - granted they were all USB2 and lower I/O count, but still. This is getting increasingly frustrating and causing me no end of headaches with recording sessions and leaves a bad impression with clients. Again, not what I paid £1600 for. I paid for something that should just work. RME have a reputation as being one of the best out there, but this isn't my experience so far.

I've read about a particular USB3 PCI card that some people have had success with when they faced similar dropout issues, but it's expensive and I don't really feel I should have to have another expense after buying what should be a top level audio interface.

FWIW my computer specs are:

Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770 CPU @ 3.40GHz   3.40 GHz
32GB ram
ASUS Z87k motherboard

I'm running the UFXIII with a SSL alphalink over madi and a focusrite liquid saffire 56 over optical - dropouts happen with those expansion units turned off though.

I'm reaching the point where I would just consider this a faulty product and will start looking at other options soon if there isn't a fix for this.

It's just not as simple as you might imagine. You can't just invest in a recording interface and think that's all which is to do on your side. There are enough problems that can occur on the computer side, which can not be solved by driver and firmware updates of the recording interface.

Hardware issues, driver problems (-> too high DPC latencies caused by bad drivers blocking a CPU for too long) , poor settings in the BIOS or Windows, possibly design issues of the motherboard or chipset problems in terms of USB3.

It could also be the case that your 10y old computer has chipset problems with USB3 or uses a 3rd party chipset that is known to cause issues.

You need to concentrate now on resolving issues on the computer side. You mentioned issues reported by LatencyMon and MADIface driver (settings dialogue). This is something that you need to find out and solve.

If you do not have the knowledge, it would be best to involve a specialist who can troubleshoot such issues.

An alternative to such work is to get a turnkey system for audio. For exactly such reasons, there are still companies selling such systems.

You can also search this forum for keywords like "LatencyMon" or "Powermizer". There are plenty of threads covering the troubleshooting, measuring and recommended settings (BIOS, Windows). Also background information.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2024-01-11
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

Whilst I understand - particularly with Windows as it's an open system in terms of hardware - that there can be compatibility issues, at the same time, no I don't expect to have to do extensive troubleshooting on such deep a level. I've owned numerous audio interfaces over the years running on multiple hardware configs and never experienced anything like this. As an end user product, an audio interface should not require the average user to have expert level computer and OS knowledge in order for it to work properly.

I don't understand latencymon, I have no idea what could be causing the issue. If it's a driver issue I'm completely clueless. I've tried following as much info out there that I could find, adjusting windows and BIOS settings, trying to understand latencymon etc - I've done the best I can but it's not getting me anywhere. I now have a £1600 audio interface that drops out audio every minute or so and I have no means to solve it. Sorry but I don't find that acceptable.

Involving a specialist? I don't have money to pay a specialist to try and figure out why my £1600 audio interface isn't working as advertised and don't think that's really an acceptable solution.

A turnkey system? What, so buy a new computer? That again is a rubbish solution.

I appreciate the response and help but I completely regret buying the UFX III at this point.

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-09 10:25:09)

  • ramses
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

To the point that you didn't have any problems earlier. Back then, you also didn't have a recording interface with 188 channels. Whether you use only a few channels or not, all channels are always transmitted. These are much higher bandwidths/data volumes that your PC must process in a timely manner.

EDIT: what you do not know is that bad drivers can block CPU cores for too long (DPC latency). Windows and also macOS are no real-time operating systems. To guarantee data integrity, drivers have the highest priority on the system and may not be interrupted by the process scheduler. Instead of this, the time that such a driver stays active on (and blocks) a CPU core is only based on "programming conventions". Only the driver itself can detach himself from the CPU in a timely manner.
If the driver is written bad or "steals" CPU time a little longer (maybe to be better in benchmarks) then it is bad if an audio related job has been scheduled to such a CPU core with high DPC latency. Then the I/O of audio data can not happen in time and you get audio drops. This can usually be mitigated by choosing larger ASIO buffer sizes so that the CPU can work more efficient on the I/O of audio data. But if your system has high DPC latencies, then it is simply not agile enough to process audio data in time.
The situation becomes worse on older systems and if you have only a few CPU cores.

In short: If you see bad LatencyMon figures, then this can be due to bad drivers or bad settings in BIOS/Windows or a combination of both.

Additionally, older USB3 chipsets, especially, were not always 100% compliant with the USB standard. USB2 transfer modes didn't have these problems. But these are all speculations. You should now consistently work on getting the DPC latencies under control.

So, in the BIOS, check if C-States (possibly also T- and P-States depending on the BIOS) and C1N are disabled. After each change, it's best to measure with LatencyMon and log whether the values have improved or worsened.

Turbo and Speed step should remain active. Turbo usually leads to a little higher base clock (around 200 MHz), by Speed step you can control the CPU clock on Windows by energy profiles which is a good thing.

In this blog article you can see what deactivation of energy saving brings approximatly in terms of reduction of latency.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … -X10SRi-F/

After power-saving has been disabled in the BIOS completely, you must then check the settings on Windows.

In Windows, make sure the correct power profile is set, either High Performance or Ultimate Performance (its hidden, google for commands to make the power profile visible and useable to you).

It might also help to reconfigure the process scheduler to "prioritize background tasks" as Microsoft calls it. See https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … es-or-not/
Behind the scenes, the following happens: this results in an increased time quantum for processes in the process scheduler. Task switches don't happen too quickly for the CPU. This means: fewer context switches for the CPU, more time for the CPU to actually get some work done.

If CRC errors are still visible in the MADIface settings, check if the USB3 cable is not too long or possibly defective. The MADIface settings window must remain open; otherwise, the CRC check will not be performed. Pay attention when reading, as there are CRC5, CRC16, CRC32 checks, and the numbers 5, 16, 32 in this designation are not counters.

Because there is a lot to consider, I have recommended consulting a technician who could assist you. I also mentioned the point that, for these reasons, it is best to get a turnkey system so that you don't have to put in so much effort yourself.

For smaller USB2 interfaces, it is usually less critical because there is less data traffic, and USB2 chipsets/transfer modes are known to be stable for almost all chipsets, with few exceptions.

But these are all problems on the computer, the motherboard, or with inserted cards...

Speaking of cards, it may also help to use a Sonnet USB3 card with an FL1100 chipset to isolate the UFX III from the rest of the USB infrastructure. It has always been a good strategy to isolate a recording interface solely behind a USB3 controller.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-09 10:06:14)

  • ramses
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

Here an entry for you to other threads dealing with this topic, gave a brief overview in the post above:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 04#p186404

My system has good drivers and has been configured well. I am getting with the UFX III a performance which is absolutely on par with PCIe products. To put two examples:
- Comparison of UFX+/UFXIII (USB3) to a RayDAT (PCIe):
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … cks-de-en/
- RTL (round trip latency) between different RME products:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … cts-en-de/

My PC, a system which I bought in 2014. A solid server board (Intel Xeon Platform) which has been upgraded over the years to an 8-core system with up-to-date graphic card, 10 Gbit LAN, RAID-0 to act as NAS server for the LAN (2nd PC):
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … mponenten/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

9 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-09 11:07:09)

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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

Three things:

1. Please note: before working on your system and making changes to windows or trying other driver versions I recommend to backup your system to be able to come back to this point shall things become worse.
Easiest is to use a backup program based on so called disk images.
The most reliable and fastest product for this is Macrium Reflect Home.
For the time being it will be sufficient to make full backups using the free version.
But to get the most useful features you should invest into the full version.
By this you get incremental backups and "Rapid Delta Restore". The latter is extremely useful because it reduces the restore time dramatically as only data is being written that needs to be restored. Additionally it reduces the wear on an SSD (less write cycles to the cells).

2. You didn't post your LatencyMon results yet.
Please do so that we know the actual situation and to interpret the data where you actually stand.

Before measuring, take care that you measure on a freshly booted system.
No other processes may run because LatencyMon itself induces a DAW load while it runs.
After starting LatencyMon please no keyboard/mouse activity by you.
I propose letting it run for 5 minutes to get a 1st impression of your computers' performance.
At a later point, you can let it run for 1–2 hours up to a day to validate your setup if you could achieve improvements and to catch any peaks induced by background processes.

You can post images of screenshots by placing the JPG files (best in 100% quality) to a cloud and then posting the link to it here. LatencyMon results, they can also be copy/pasted as ASCII text.

After stopping LatencyMon also have a look at the TAB "Drivers".
Sort for Column "highest execution (ms)" descending.
Also post a screenshot of this. This shows the highest execution time of all of your drivers to identify, which one maybe takes too much CPU time.

3. In case of CRC errors, post a screenshot of your MADIface driver settings window

Keep this window open only then the CRC checks run.
If you see errors there, make a screenshot.
Then we can check together whether you have USB transport errors or not.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

10 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-09 11:04:03)

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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

Then a general recommendation.
I would proactively invest into this USB3 card based on FL1100 USB3 chipset.

This card with this particular USB3 controller is known to work well, see also manual
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html

If you have a recent Windows 10 then the drivers for FL1100 USB3 controller are included.

Another advantage of this driver, it uses MSI (message signalled interrupts) which work more efficiently.

It might not be necessary to get this card, but it is generally a good idea to isolate a recording interface from the rest of the USB infrastructure.

You need a free PCIe 2.0 x1 slot  (with one PCIe 2.0 lane).

I bought myself 2 cards last recently to have 1 reserve card.

I made good experience isolating two (!) UFX+ behind a dedicated USB3 controller in the past. I added at that time some additional USB devices to my system (USB Bluetooth stick and other fancy stuff) and at this point some problems with audio drops arose.

After isolating the recording interfaces and reference converter (2x UFX+, 1x ADI-2 Pro) behind such a dedicated controller card with FL1100 chips, all these issues went away.
Therefore I think, that it is a good idea to isolate a recording interfaces behind a dedicated USB3 controller. By this you solve also any potential compatibility problem just in case the implementation of USB3 on your board or the sum of USB interfaces cause issues.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-09 12:13:25)

  • ramses
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

This was a lot of information and facts. Thats why I told you it is in some cases better to get a turnkey system then having the work on your side.

Next steps:

1. Gather facts, post information, see posting #9 (LatencyMon DPC check, MADIface driver crc check)

2. Try all USB3 ports. You never know which USB port of your system comes from chipset or 3rd party controller
    By this you might get better working one if there is a difference.
    For this reason this action is always recommended by RME support in such situations:
    https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 10#p186410

3. Disable energy saving in the BIOS, see posting #9 (disabling of C-/P-/T- States, etc ...)
    This posting gives a nicer formatted list of objectives, see "BIOS settings"
    https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 04#p186404

4. ensure in Windows that you use the energy profile high performance, with energy saving settings you get automatically worse DPC latencies.

5. Remeasure with LatencyMon, does it give lower DPC latencies now?

Optional or "pro-active":
- get Sonnet card with FL1100 chip if you have a PCIe 2.0 socket free
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html
- get a reliable Lindy USB3 cable, 3m is max length
https://www.lindy.de/3m-USB-3-2-Typ-A-a … ;ci=800504

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

Thanks for the detailed responses ramses. I appreciate you are trying to help. I have noticed however you do seem to recommend to anyone having issues to buy a 'turnkey system' - basically telling them to go buy a new computer. That's not a great solution, as I said before, and I will not be doing that - I've spent enough money as is.

I've tried all USB ports - no dice. BIOS energy saving is already disabled. Windows high energy profile is enabled. Basically, I already have all of the usual recommended optimisations for audio in my BIOS and OS.

I don't understand what i'm doing in the slightest with latencymon. Hence why I haven't posted anything.

I did in the end buy a Sonnet card. My interface now runs without dropouts and zero errors. *However*, I still have to unplug and plug back in the USB cable every time I turn my PC on to get my PC to recognise the UFX III. Super annoying.

I am using the USB cable supplied with the UFX III. If this doesn't work properly, then well, I'm not even going to go there.

For now, I've given up. I spent an incredibly large amount of money on a product that doesn't work as advertised. I'm disappointed with my purchase and this has put me off sticking with RME in the future.

  • Apfel
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

bunkhousestudios wrote:

… I still have to unplug and plug back in the USB cable every time I turn my PC on to get my PC to recognise the UFX III. …

Did you try this:
- turn on the PC first
- wait until it has completely booted
- only then turn on the interface
?

iMac M1, Fireface 800, Logic Pro X
  • ramses
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

It doesn't hurt to point out from time to time that there are still companies specialized in offering systems for areas that inherently impose higher demands on hardware configuration, drivers, and BIOS/Windows settings than the remaining 90% of applications. The studio/recording sector is simply a niche area, and the near-real-time requirements for audio processing are quite specific. Microsoft and motherboard manufacturers set up basic configurations and test cases for the majority of computer users, but these do not cover topics such as audio and video editing.

The fastest machine may be okay for benchmarks but might still not be suitable for audio. I like to mention this to wake people up to the fact that these specialized companies exist for a good reason. Many people are fortunate, and everything works right away. However, if you're not lucky, you need to realize that such issues can occur.

You can either familiarize yourself with the intricacies or hire others to solve the problem. However, you could have also initially acquired a system suitable for such tasks, thoroughly assembled, configured, and tested. It may only help you understand that sometimes you might face challenges with such things. Others are also reading, and the next time they buy a computer, they have another chance to play it safe and get such a pre-built system to avoid the hassle or trouble.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: UFX III usb disconnection problem

Apfel wrote:
bunkhousestudios wrote:

… I still have to unplug and plug back in the USB cable every time I turn my PC on to get my PC to recognise the UFX III. …

Did you try this:
- turn on the PC first
- wait until it has completely booted
- only then turn on the interface
?

I would check
BIOS: energy saving disabled (C-States)
Windows: energy profile Ultimate performance selected (google you need to make this profile visible 1st before you can use it)
Windows: in the power settings there is a point whether PCIe and USB should be allowed to perform energy saving. This needs to be disabled as well.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14