1 Topic by Jim90 (edited by Jim90 2024-02-14 12:01:32)

  • Jim90
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Topic: Fireface 802 optimising Guitar with Amp Plugins

I have a collection of various guitar amp sims e.g. S-Gear, BIAS FX, Amplitube, etc. I've never been happy with the sound of the clean and edge of breakup patches. When watching various YouTube reviews, I am becoming more and more convinced they are less than truthful in how they are getting some of those sounds, particularly the cleans - the sounds they get are rich, full of life, sound great. My sounds (new strings) using the same patches are dull, lifeless, uninspiring. I would never buy this product if the sound demo'd was like this. Don't get me wrong, there is some life there, it's just that the patch sound I get is nowhere as 'good' as what I hear in the review. Every review. 

I currently plug my guitar (Strat/LP/Suhr) into the front left (channel 9) combo socket. In TotalMix Hardware Input, I select 'Inst' for this channel - the Fireface front pannel '48V/INST' led lights up. I play the guitar and note that the input meter in TotalMix is low, so I turn up the Fireface Gain knob till a reasonable signal is seen, keeping a good bit away from 0.

In Cakewalk (Bandlab) I create an audio track, select its input as Fireface channel 9 (L), and for testing purposes, the output straight to Fireface AES (Fireface connected to my Eve SC203 speakers digital input).

In the plugin, the only change I make is to adjust the input and output volume (for youtube comparison testing, I don't want to change the patch sound).

Is there something I'm doing wrong here?

Interestingly, there is currently a lot of noise in YouTube regarding how to optimise this very issue. Basically, instead of the (what I thought) standard 'turning the audio interface gain up till it clips, then turning it back for a little headroom' - instead of doing that, it is suggested that we now set the interface gain close to 0. Why? because it turns out that most/all plugin makers optimise the guitar signal from the interface with a 'low' gain setting. This is bizarre since it's counter intuitive. However, when they demo'd the issue using the 'normal' method using a clean plugin patch, the sound was very pushed/crunchy. The thing is, I would realise this instantly as a problem with the interface's gain and back it off a little, so I'm not sure I have that same issue (at least for clean patches).
S-Gear seems to be a bit different here, in that it does require a high(er) interface gain setting before its input and output meters registers a reasonable signal that you can hear.

2 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2024-02-14 12:46:50)

  • waedi
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Re: Fireface 802 optimising Guitar with Amp Plugins

The most mindblowing step is a cabinet IR.
This turns the amp sim into a real amp.
Put an IR after the ampsim !
these are very good :
https://www.forward-audio.com/products/ … odern-rock

and this is an interesting video how to do : https://youtu.be/bqs3aZAJAUQ?si=jjzDpaAeHuWUzFWG

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Re: Fireface 802 optimising Guitar with Amp Plugins

When you turning gain up it works as pedal before the amp. So if you use any pedals inside the plugin and turning gain up it's like u go pedal into the pedal. That's why they say put u gain knob to 0.
But the main thing as i start to developed my ears through the years of mixing and chasing guitar tones i realized that absolutely all plugins are not even close to the real deal. So if you want really rich thick and saturated guitar tone u gave to go real amp. Plugins have their own sound and for some players it's ok. But I've had a bunch of interfaces and DI Boxes that never worked for me.

4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-14 15:15:47)

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Re: Fireface 802 optimising Guitar with Amp Plugins

The only virtual amp plugin which gives me useable sound and dynamic is S-Gear v 3.1.2 with the new Drive Thru Pedal. This new virtual pedal has around 20 presets of its own. The one which I like is the Plexi Drv.

It acts really dynamic on your plec's attack and it is the only VST plugin with a sound that motivates me.

Supported by an external FX .. Lexicon PCM 81.

Two sound demos here in the last blog article about the UFX III (https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/)

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

5 Reply by Jim90 (edited by Jim90 2024-02-14 21:22:43)

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Re: Fireface 802 optimising Guitar with Amp Plugins

Thanks for the input folks, much appreciated.  The guitar tone in your clip, Ramses, sounds superb! and that's a very helpful Youtube video, Waedi.

Over the years (gigged for most of them...weddings, functions, social clubs etc) I've had a collection of real amps, but at the moment, as I get close to retiring, I'm keen to review what I currently have and compare. I do have a Fuchs TDS 50w combo, and above my PC as I type this, the Fireface 802, a Marshall JMP-1 and a Kemper rack. Along with a fair collection of plugins it's a bit of a mix.
(Growing up with and using real amps extensively, there's nothing that comes close to it for motivating a live guitarist on stage (or recorded) )

However, with the plugins, I've always struggled to get close to the reviewed sounds, even using the same patches, making me think either most of them aren't being truthful, or, there's something basic that I'm doing wrong.
The current discussion in youtube land is on-topic, in that the (new) advice is to set the audio interface gain at close to 0 - rather than the standard 'bring it up till it clips then back off'. But, as I've found, there's clearly some variation in how plugin devs require the input signal to sit at, with BIAS FX and Neural DSP Tone King happy with a near 0 gain setting, but S-Gear (3.1.2) requiring a significant increase.

All this is perhaps getting away from my own issue at hand - I've always compensated with the Fireface gain knob when I hear a clean patch distorting. Crucially, the issue doesn't appear to be with the gain - no matter how I set it I still cannot get close to those video demos.

6 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2024-02-14 21:54:57)

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Re: Fireface 802 optimising Guitar with Amp Plugins

> The guitar tone in your clip, Ramses, sounds superb!

Many thanks for the flowers. Yeah, makes fun to play.

Regarding your comments, yes, I am usually also not really a friend of plugins and such stuff.
S-Gear is an exception for me, but somehow a one-trick pony.
My preferences are real amps, but you know the problem to playing them at home.

When working with real amps, effects or with VST .. simply trust your own ears.
Every circuit seems to have a sweet spot of its own and it also depends on the use case.

To use my two Marshall 50W combo amps at bedroom levels (not louder than 80db) I also had to do some adjustments to get a nice distortion in the preamp, but to send only a lower volume to the power amp. Also, the FX I do not drive close to 0dB.

You need to experiment, and sometimes it is pure occasion to find something which sounds nicer than the previous setups / gain staging.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13