1 (edited by Muelforther 2024-03-23 08:57:08)

Topic: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

Hi dear RME community,

I‘ve been reading and following this forum for some months now and I feel I‘ve watched every single video on YouTube, still trying to get my head around as I feel I might miss some aspects before pulling the trigger on a or several product(s).

My situation:

  • Home Studio
    Mixing and Mastering entirely in the box (no analog outboard gear - well, YET)
    Acoustically treated room
    (Formerly Fireface 802 user, so already some experience with RME and TotalMix FX)

My setup:

  • MacStudio (2023)
    Neumann KH80 DSP (using the Neumann Monitor Alignment system to match & correct the room using internal DSP)
    Vovox link protect audio cable
    Neumann NDH-30 open back headphones

My main priority is the best DA conversion. As far as I see, the most straight way in my setup would be the ADI-2 DAC FS. Connected via USB to my Mac, can feed both my monitors and my headphones, done. Street price for (used) ADI-2 DAC FS is around 700-850€. Includes also Crossfeed, which comes very handy for mixing purposes. I‘d prefer a rack mounted DA converter, but the ADI-2 FS won‘t run as standalone with the Mac, unfortunately.

Occasionally, I‘ll want to record my voice for tutorials on YouTube. I could use a common USB mic, but I‘d prefer a decent audio interface with 48V phantom power to feed my mic. Now, this is when things start to get complex as I think about future proof options. Technically, I could use any interface with ADAT to keep the ADI-2 DAC FS as the last piece in my chain for the final DA conversion to feed my Neumann monitors and my headphones. But then I think: „But if I‘ll go for an additional interface, then go RME because of the quality, the drivers and, of course, TotalMix FX“

Then I jump into the RME interface rabbit hole. wink Well, I look at the UCX II, which seems an amazing device: decent I/O, TotalMix, rack mounted, Durec and now also comes with Crossfeed and I wonder: „Wouldn‘t that be enough as the internal converters of the RME audio interfaces are already very, very good?“ - If I spend €1376 (current price of the UCX II as of March 2024), do I REALLY need an additional investment just for the DA conversion? Or even just €699 for the ADI-2 FS? In other words: Is the DA conversion of the ADI-2 worth an upgrade of €699, when the UCX II does the job already very well?

I am ready to spend €1.000 - €1.500 (roughly) for a start, but of course I try to get the best option for the least amount of money. I am more than happy to upgrade my setup over time in the future, hence I am looking for a starting point which is as future proof as possible. And yes, like every studio owner, you at least consider feeding in analog outboard gear in the future (analog summing, external fx like compressors etc.). It‘s not the main priority, but I won‘t exclude this option in the future.

Again, I‘m not a HiFi person - in my setup I wouldn‘t even need a remote for the ADI-2 or all the internal EQ settings as my monitors are measured perfectly leveraging Neumann‘s amazing monitor alignment system.

Thanks ever so much for any guidance based on your experience in case I miss a fact that I simply do not see yet as I never owned an ADI-2 product, only the 802 FS interface in my former studio (when I recorded more stuff).

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

I would stay with the 802 FS, it is perfectly fine for recording and for playback.

M1-Sequoia, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

Thanks for your response.

Unfortunately, I don‘t own the 802 anymore (maybe I was too misleading in my initial post when I wrote „formerly 802 user“)

4 (edited by ramses 2024-03-23 11:35:24)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

As I understood, you want to be able to expand your setup in the future, but you're currently limited by your budget. That's not an easy starting point, but let's brainstorm and work on the process of elimination to figure out what you perhaps avoid.

If you plan to expand later on, you should choose equipment with expandability in mind. Buying something too narrow just to fit your current budget doesn't make sense because you'll lose money when you buy and sell again. While RME devices hold their value better due to quality and long-term driver support, if your budget is tight, it's still best to avoid this if possible.

Furthermore, consider the time factor. If you buy a different device later on, you'll have to redo the entire TotalMix configuration. If that's not something you're good at or haven't documented well, it could mean a lot of work.
Time will be lost, time you could spend with your family or earning money (what also could be used to finance the setup).

So, you should aim to buy something that offers investment security for a longer time range or even features that make your work easier or that you consider important for your setup or workflow (DURec, Autoset, etc.). An UFX III could, e.g., be the recording interface for your lifetime (due to MADI expandability and the long driver support of RME, for some products already 20+ years).

Depending on the terms, I wouldn't rule out installment payments, either. You'll have to calculate that. Maybe pay €1500 upfront and then the rest in installments. You could also use your current 802 for trade-in value, as it might turn out that you're better off aiming for UFX II or even UFX III (due to better expansion capabilities with MADI).

While an 802 is already a great interface, what I, personally, don't like about it compared to flagship interfaces is that certain level settings (microphone, headphones) can only be controlled analogously via knobs. I know there are still enthusiasts for this, but I find it much better if these values can also be digitally stored and recalled via TotalMix FX snapshots and workspace, so you can recall a specific setup (especially in a home/project studio) easily. It saves time. I also miss features like Autoset for quicker level adjustments for microphones or connected instruments (guitar, bass, etc.). Or DURec for backup recordings or standalone recordings. The operation or display options already provide a concrete added value. A quick glance at the display and I can see if something is clipping, without having to bring up the TotalMix FX window separately (I only have Full-HD resolution).

Ok, the new 802 FS has the better analog and digital section of UFX II and UFX III. But I would definitely consider whether it's worth it (since you're already investing so much). I think it's better to skip it and to go for the UFX II or UFX III because of certain features, some of which I've mentioned above, but there are also others.

So, now you're in a price range of a UFX II or UFX III, which ranges between €2099 and €2689. ARC USB is also recommended (€159), but you can also buy it later (a nice Christmas present).

In this price range, you probably won't consider adding an ADI-2 ***, as the quality of the UFX III is already fantastic, and you do not need more. Here, I would really focus and trust on the features and expandability of an UFX III. You can always use or need a few more mic preamps or analog channels in the future.

With ADAT, you can connect 2×8=16 channels at single speed (44.1-48 kHz), but then the device is full. If you ever want to record at double speed, you'll only have 2×4=8 channels available, so you'd have to disconnect either the preamp or AD/DA converter and plug in the 2nd ADAT connection. But you'd like to avoid such rearrangements. The ports aren't fragile, but they're not meant to be constantly plugged and unplugged, I'm thinking of the small plastic flaps covering the optical ports.

In short, I would consider investing directly in a UFX III. Sell your existing 802, put the up to ~€1500 into it, and finance the rest with a small loan if necessary, or just wait and save until you have the money.

With the additional 64 MADI channels (at single speed), you'll not only have enough port capacity, but you can also use unused MADI channels for special Submixes, which you can also record via loopback if needed.

With a fully loaded recording interface, it's easy for all channels to be in use, and you might not be able to do something like that.

The quality of the analog section of UFX III (also in the new 802 FS and later UFX II) is superb. It uses the same AKM converters like the older ADI-2 Pro FS reference converter.

I wouldn't worry about the ADI-2 DAC or Pro too much, the delta is small, it is more about features.
But you can at any time later connect an ADI-2 DAC or Pro or even ADI-2/4 Pro SE if you want those additional features.

Now with the UFX III (also in the new 802 FS and later UFX II) you get additionally ROOM EQ and cross-feed and optical SPDIF for both ADAT outputs.

MADI also gives you other advantages … Everything in one cable and the OM4 (or OM3) optical fiber cable can be up to 2 km long between (each!) of the devices which you can connect "serial", one device after the other, which results in a ring structure. For normal use cases between monitoring and recording room, the usual multimode "patch cables" are sufficient, you get them in shops, usually up to 50m long.
With ADAT, you can't chain devices and according to the specifications, ADAT allows only 10m, with RME up to ~15m.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

5 (edited by ramses 2024-03-23 11:14:15)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

Regarding external devices, there's something else to consider. Most of the time, these are stereo devices, so you already need a pair of inputs and outputs. It's best to connect these devices individually so that you can define them in the DAW as external FX and use them as an analog insert in a track or as a send effect for multiple tracks. In this case, you might be glad to be able to connect analog ports or mic preamps via MADI and still have the option to use double speed if that ever becomes of interest to you. Personally, I still use single speed, but it's good to keep that option open. And then, two ADAT ports can quickly become insufficient.

Here my setup: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/

What I want to demonstrate is, that it goes rather quick to need more ports, depending on your setup and if you plan to work with analog gear.

I am also using the PC / recording as a Music player for HIFI (remote control of MusicBee via Android device is possible) and I can also use my HIFI as Monitor B by using a 2nd ADI-2 Pro FS R BE.

I am plugging my guitar to the UFX III to be able to re-amp or to use VSTi, but also to use my UFX III as parallel effect loop for my two Marshall Combos.

I can use (due to TM FX routing) either the PCM81 or even the PCM91 for Guitar. Usually PCM81 for guitar and PCM91 for DAW. But I also have a TM FX routing to use both PCM for DAW.

All is possible, thanks to RME and TotalMix a fantastic setup.

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachment/3044-current-setup-ufx-iii-v002-jpg/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

6 (edited by ramses 2024-03-23 12:26:25)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

If you're wondering why I consider relying solely on ADAT expansion to be too limited in the long run...
If you can't afford RME converters as an expansion (e.g., M-1610 Pro), then I would recommend a Ferrofish Pulse 16 as the next best option.
The Pulse 16 has 16 analog I/O, so you can connect up to 8 external stereo devices (EQ, compressor and what not).
With that, both ADAT ports are fully utilized at single speed.
It would leave no room to connect a mic preamp unless you sacrifice some analog port capacity or opt for external preamps, which are not only expensive but also take up additional space.

Additionally, at double speed, two ADAT ports won't suffice.

Therefore, MADI provides a better and more future-proof foundation if you intend to connect more devices, whether converters or preamps. Assumed the number of devices might pile up in the future and assumed that you might expand both, number of Mic inputs and analog line inputs for connecting external devices.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7 (edited by Muelforther 2024-03-23 13:08:38)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

First of all, thank you so much, dear @ramses, for your comprehensive and detailed answers.

It's remarkable how much time and dedication you put into your responses in general to help people and give guidance. That's a true gem, even (or especially?) in the audio industry. I truly appreciate it. Thanks!

Yes, I totally see your point. The UFX III is a big investment, for sure. The budget is (basically) available, but I'm also a married man and father and in order to avoid a divorce, I need and want to be rather conservative in my spendings for gear wink Hence I've set myself a limit of up to €1.500,- (and as I've already invested a little fortune in the acoustic treatment of my room). And my initial post was misleading - I am a FORMER user of the 802, but I sold it back in 2021 when I gave up my old studio due to Corona.

The selling point for me is the quality of the converters. The available I/O of the UFX III is currently overkill for me, but I get your point of future security. And with I/O like on the UFX III, I could easily record artists and musicians (there's occasionally a request for this, too - even though I'm just offering mixing and mastering).

Thanks again & happy weekend!

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

What about a babyface pro FS? It has all you need and converter quality is great with FS clocking. On paper a little less then the ADI range, a little more noise and distortion, but to me well beyond the audible (and AFAIK even RME agrees with that). So you will have main ou, phones out mic ins instrument ins and even adat expandability.
On the noise; even my best instrument, a Moog sub37 has more noie by a margin (in the -90db region) then the BF. And don't even talk about mic noise and the acoustic noise in my studio. And both never are a problem.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

9 (edited by ramses 2024-03-23 14:08:29)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

Thanks for the compliments, you're welcome. Your comment about further I/O requirement possibly brought me to drift into an extreme that you possibly do not necessarily need.

So lets remove the UFX III from the list.

Then I think you have the following options:

1. if you are 100% sure that the number and type of I/O is sufficient:
    UCX II and then at any time later ARC USB an ADI-2 DAC or Pro if you like the features
    Keep in mind, limited by only 1 ADAT port which means bound to single speed,
    if you plan to connect 8-port devices for expansions (be it preamp or adda converter)
    On the other hand: cool features from the flagship interfaces like DURec, Autoset, 75 dB gain range for preamps.
    Also useful the additional AES port compared to the old UCX.
    There you could connected an ADI-2 Pro via optical SPDIF and still have one ADAT port free for an expansion

2. 802 FS if you want to be on the safer side regarding more I/O and two ADAT ports for expansions.

3. Preferable still the UFX II type of flagship interface for mentioned reasons, simply more flexibility feature wise compared to 802 FS and everything can be stored in snapshots.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

10 (edited by ramses 2024-03-23 14:14:38)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

vinark wrote:

What about a babyface pro FS? It has all you need and converter quality is great with FS clocking. On paper a little less then the ADI range, a little more noise and distortion, but to me well beyond the audible (and AFAIK even RME agrees with that). So you will have main ou, phones out mic ins instrument ins and even adat expandability.
On the noise; even my best instrument, a Moog sub37 has more noie by a margin (in the -90db region) then the BF. And don't even talk about mic noise and the acoustic noise in my studio. And both never are a problem.

True, but what about future demands, I mean this comment, I quote it just in case you overlooked it:

"I am ready to spend €1.000 - €1.500 (roughly) for a start, but of course I try to get the best option for the least amount of money. I am more than happy to upgrade my setup over time in the future, hence I am looking for a starting point which is as future proof as possible. And yes, like every studio owner, you at least consider feeding in analog outboard gear in the future (analog summing, external fx like compressors etc.). It‘s not the main priority, but I won‘t exclude this option in the future."

How do you add an external EQ, compressor or channel strip on the BBF Pro?
Not so easy and straightforward. This makes the BBF Pro to an unsafe investment.

In contrast to that the UCX II is in budget and even the 802 FS if he saves some money.
Then he needs to think about whether UCX II is preferred or the 802 FS feature- or connection wise.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

11 (edited by vinark 2024-03-23 14:29:16)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

True true Ramses, only the baby is less of an investment and can easily be sold later on with a minimal loss. And he does not want a divorce and I guess not spend more then needed in the light of his family.
Adding outboard is easy enough with an 8ch adat expander (up to 48khz of course).

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

12 (edited by ramses 2024-03-23 15:13:40)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

vinark wrote:

True true Ramses, only the baby is less of an investment and can easily be sold later on with a minimal loss. And he does not want a divorce and I guess not spend more then needed in the light of his family.
Adding outboard is easy enough with an 8ch adat expander (up to 48khz of course).

Hey, he is not buying with the intention to sell later wink
He is buying according to current and future demands, and he stated that he is ready to spend of up to €1500.

Then it makes no sense to think about a recording interface which has not enough analog I/O to connect external devices (one of his future requirements). Besides this, the BBF Pro is designed for mobile use and has a few limitations to be able to run with USB2 bus power.

Regarding selling. He is safe with any RME product, up to the flagship units. Every RME recording interface sells without any issues, usually around 75% of street price.
Complete accessory and mint condition is a plus. This is why I am keeping the original package, keeping everything in mint condition to be able to get a good price and the interest of buyers.

So if BBF Pro FS would only be a temp. purchase this would mean that he looses approximately 25% when selling which is currently €819*.25= €204,75. This money is IMHO better invested into an interface which holds for at least 5+ years, with the BBF Pro its foreseeable, that it won't last long. He already had an 802.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

Hey Ramsi it is not that he can not think these things for himself and make a good decision. I am never criticizing you when I make an additional suggestion. In this case, I sympathize with the needing to keep budget under control for family reasons. It is the same for me, otherwise I would have gotten me a flagship RME too and not a Babyface, that would have been a UFX+ then and now a UFX3. But I am still very happy with my Babyface.
I especially dont like it when the two of us are discussing like this without input from the OP.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

14 (edited by Muelforther 2024-03-23 16:26:34)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

Hey @ramses & @vinark,

no worries at all, even your little argument does help. This is the great stuff about forums like this - sometimes it just helps to hear different views and opinions. That's exactly what I was hoping for. Of course it's up to me in the end to decide which purchase I'll make.

The more I read here and the more I think about the options, I feel the UCX II might be the sweet spot for my needs: Decent I/O, DuRec, rack-mount ability, very good ad/da conversion and now, TotalMix FX, and now, with the latest updates, even Crossfeed implemented - and still with a small footprint for portability. My old band asked me if I could record them maybe later this year. It's just one singer, two guitars and a bass - all doable with the UCX II. The drums might get a bit tricky, probably need to do overdubs then. But that's just one occasion. 95% of the time I need a stable and great sounding device for my home studio for production, mixing and mastering.

As you guys all know, there's always something new on the market and budget is not endless. There are plugins for mixing, cables, outboard gear, external storage ... you name it. Music is fun - but it's also rather expensive.

Thanks for all comments so far and I'll keep you updated - or come up with additional questions. Great forum!!

15 (edited by ramses 2024-03-23 17:27:20)

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

vinark wrote:

Hey Ramsi it is not that he can not think these things for himself and make a good decision. I am never criticizing you when I make an additional suggestion. In this case, I sympathize with the needing to keep budget under control for family reasons. It is the same for me, otherwise I would have gotten me a flagship RME too and not a Babyface, that would have been a UFX+ then and now a UFX3. But I am still very happy with my Babyface.
I especially dont like it when the two of us are discussing like this without input from the OP.

Hey Vini, just take it easy :-) I don't know how long I've been working on this post to find different solutions...
Sorry, but when you come around with something like a three-liner and the Babyface, I really don't know what to make of it ;-) I'd rather ask if we're still talking about the same requirements from the OP wink
The main important thing is that we understand each other and make a joint effort to find good solutions for other customers (and, while we are at it, I like your expertise) :-)

Muelforther wrote:

Hey @ramses & @vinark,
no worries at all, even your little argument does help. This is the great stuff about forums like this - sometimes it just helps to hear different views and opinions. That's exactly what I was hoping for. Of course it's up to me in the end to decide which purchase I'll make.
[...]
Thanks for all comments so far and I'll keep you updated - or come up with additional questions. Great forum!!

I'm delighted that it helped you to find a good solution for yourself. I believe in the end, both Vinark's and my approaches have contributed to polarizing and giving you another opportunity to reconsider how much sustainability after purchase, "freedom" and "peace of mind" you can purchase with how much money...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

Re: The RME & ADI-2 rabbit hole: Seeking guidance (Studio, no HiFi)

Great, and all is good Ramses!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632